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[Antioch]

Limit one weapons, people will find another, and another, and another, all the way down to sharpened sticks and bludgeons if need be.

You simply can't stop someone from hurting others if they're intent enough on doing it. Even if you limited automatic weapons there are still dozens of other ways to hurt mass numbers of people. It's simply impossible to stop.

It's a point in humanity's favor though, that despite the methods being widely available, so few people actually take advantage.

Maybe, much like how we have fire drills, tornado drills, etc., that we need to start having mass shooting drills.

Schools around here already do those. They're termed less alarmingly(Intruder drill, or something like that, I think?), but the idea is that the students all get herded away from windows, shoved into closets, behind bookshelves, and anything else that might block projectiles or at least sight, doors are ensured locked, windows drawn closed, lights turned off and then they sit and wait quietly.

Good luck murdering over 50 people and injuring 400 more with a sharpened stick.

There have been plenty of terrorists in Europe lately that resorted to knife attacks instead of guns and they have all been far less deadly than the gun attacks.

[smjjames]

EDIT: I know this is a lot of meandering tangents, but I guess what I'm saying is that we should examine why we live in a nation where everyone wants to shoot each other rather than (or really, in addition to) just looking at the gun he used.

Theres loads of studies regarding gun violence, though a gun database is almost nonexistent because nobody wants the government to know who has what guns. Really, the problem isn't a lack of data or studies, the problem is a lack of political will to actually get anything done.

Limit one weapons, people will find another, and another, and another, all the way down to sharpened sticks and bludgeons if need be.

You simply can't stop someone from hurting others if they're intent enough on doing it. Even if you limited automatic weapons there are still dozens of other ways to hurt mass numbers of people. It's simply impossible to stop.

It's a point in humanity's favor though, that despite the methods being widely available, so few people actually take advantage.

Maybe, much like how we have fire drills, tornado drills, etc., that we need to start having mass shooting drills.

Schools around here already do those. They're termed less alarmingly(Intruder drill, or something like that, I think?), but the idea is that the students all get herded away from windows, shoved into closets, behind bookshelves, and anything else that might block projectiles or at least sight, doors are ensured locked, windows drawn closed, lights turned off and then they sit and wait quietly.

Good luck murdering over 50 people and injuring 400 more with a sharpened stick.

There have been plenty of terrorists in Europe lately that resorted to knife attacks instead of guns and they have all been far less deadly than the gun attacks.

I get it and I think we all get it, the only problem is that we're literally the only country which has the right to own guns enshrined in the constitution. If you have a solution that won't result in the Second Amendment rights crowd from screaming their heads off, then I'm all ears.

[Reelya]

EDIT: I know this is a lot of meandering tangents, but I guess what I'm saying is that we should examine why we live in a nation where everyone wants to shoot each other rather than (or really, in addition to) just looking at the gun he used.

I don't know if people losing the plot is any different anywhere else. Just in most other places you can't easily get weapons that allow one person to kill 50 people with ease. In China and Europe you have people going nuts and doing knife or car attacks. They're not able to easily kill so many people in those compared to if they had a rifle. They would have used rifles if they were available.

For an example of the mental health / guns thing: Israel stopped letting soldiers take their rifles home on weekends back in ~2005, and the total national suicide rate fell by 40% instantly. If they instead had said "hey mental illness is the real issue, not guns" then probably nothing would have gotten better at all. This shows that guns and other killing means are not just interchangeable. Killing yourself is an impulsive thing, and if it becomes less easy, less people do it, they don't find "any means necessary" in some logical process. That's proven by Israel's experience.

[Zangi]

Maybe actually doing something about mental illness would make a difference. 

That is really the only direction the GoP could take without compromising on gun control, but still be able to say they are doing something.

Given the track record, they'll focus on the wrong things and/or implement it so poorly that it'll make things worse.

[Dunamisdeos]

Yeah I feel like limiting the firearms that can cause this kind of destruction is really equally important.

For us it's seems like it's almost all civilians doing this. I think our culture in addition to the availability of guns is the problem. No sugarcoating it, we actively encourage dehumanization and hate for people who are different.

[smjjames]

EDIT: I know this is a lot of meandering tangents, but I guess what I'm saying is that we should examine why we live in a nation where everyone wants to shoot each other rather than (or really, in addition to) just looking at the gun he used.

I don't know if people losing the plot is any different anywhere else. Just in most other places you can't easily get weapons that allow one person to kill 50 people with ease. In China and Europe you have people going nuts and doing knife or car attacks. They're not able to easily kill so many people in those compared to if they had a rifle. They would have used rifles if they were available.

For an example of the mental health / guns thing: Israel stopped letting soldiers take their rifles home on weekends back in ~2005, and the total national suicide rate fell by 40% instantly. If they instead had said "hey mental illness is the real issue, not guns" then probably nothing would have gotten better at all.

That's the problem, the Republicans keep brushing it off as mental illness and looking at mental illness instead of guns. I have absolutely no idea what it would take for Republicans to shake the NRA mind control (being sarcastic and hyperbolic here) and work with the Democrats to do something that would reduce the gun violence problem we have in the US.

Maybe actually doing something about mental illness would make a difference. 

That is really the only direction the GoP could take without compromising on gun control, but still be able to say they are doing something.

Given the track record, they'll focus on the wrong things and/or implement it so poorly that it'll make things worse.

Working on mental illness only goes so far. Theres no hints yet that the shooter had any mental illnesses, he did have a dysfunctional family since the father was a bank robber back in the 60's and he and his brother barely even knew him, but should we bar people from dysfunctional families from owning guns? no, because that makes no sense and tons of people are from dysfunctional families and don't go on rampages.

Yeah I feel like limiting the firearms that can cause this kind of destruction is really equally important.

For us it's seems like it's almost all civilians doing this. I think our culture in addition to the availability of guns is the problem. No sugarcoating it, we actively encourage dehumanization and hate for people who are different.

We don't know the exact guns used yet, but there were at least 10, and some of them were long barreled rifle types.

[Frumple]

Heh. GOP mouths brushing it off as mental illness, anyway. Then promptly and persistently does damn near everything it can to kneecap the fields related to treating the issues related, wreck attempts towards outreach in hopes of preventing all sorts of shit, and shame attempts to seek help. All while very much intentionally and persistently trying to destroy any and all capability, government or otherwise, to track warning signs.

Either they don't actually think that's the case, are "just" incompetent to the point it's indistinguishable from malice, or for some fucked up reason intermittent mass murder and all sorts of other fuck ups related to the subject are a desired goal. Goddamn republican party being what it is these days, I can't actually tell which or what combination of that it is.

[milo christiansen]

Twenty Sided: The no Politics Rule

[RedKing]

Oh, and it's worth noting that major gun manufacturers saw a jump in their stock prices this morning. Which...I just don't even have words for.

I know it's not something they deliberately caused, and that they're not manipulating the market. I fully understand the mechanics of how this happens. Doesn't change the fact that I feel pure, unadulterated, white-hot rage for the vultures out there making a fucking buck off of bodies that aren't even in the ground yet.

Twenty Sided: The no Politics Rule

You have a point with that? This is the politics thread.

[smjjames]

ISIS seems pretty desperate to claim it as theirs, they've made a renewed claim without evidence.

No evidence has been found linking the shooter with any international group or otherwise, and no hints on motive yet either that I know of.

Oh, and it's worth noting that major gun manufacturers saw a jump in their stock prices this morning. Which...I just don't even have words for.

I know it's not something they deliberately caused, and that they're not manipulating the market. I fully understand the mechanics of how this happens. Doesn't change the fact that I feel pure, unadulterated, white-hot rage for the vultures out there making a fucking buck off of bodies that aren't even in the ground yet.

It's crazy that even happens at all, but that's the vagaries of the stock market.....

Twenty Sided: The no Politics Rule

You have a point with that? This is the politics thread.

I guess it's supposed to be a joke because the (Republican at least) politicians are all like "Now is not the time to play gun politics." Either that or the fact that we aren't raging over gun politics in here.

[RedKing]

Yeah, it's never time to play politics with a tragedy. Unless it's a Muslim shooter. Or a black shooter. Or a liberal shooter.

But when the perp is (as usual) a fucking white guy.....

[Frumple]

It's crazy that even happens at all, but that's the vagaries of the stock market.....

Got nothing to do with the stock market per se. Gun sales just about always jump after events like this one. Ain't even much of a surprise, we've got a lot of people that claim guns make you safer from stuff like this happening, along with all the other cultural artifacts related to firearms. It's not hard to predict that people experiencing stress or fear from an attack like this would want to acquire a totem claimed to ward off the evil with flying bits of metal.

[Max™]

I'm a terrible person, my first thought after seeing the "ban guns" and "good luck killing 50 with a knife" was 'trebuchets loaded with knives' and it seems like there are lots of layers of inappropriateness there.

[smjjames]

Pfft this guy (the trump voter that often corresponds with that BBC correspondent), says that detection for mental illness is the answer, not restricting guns. The most evidence we have so far of mental illness is that he had a dysfunctional family and a father who was barely present, and having daddy problems isn't considered a mental illness (okay, maybe by Freud). Detection for mental illness doesn't work if there is no mental illness to detect.

Also lol the entry above that with the fired CBS lawyer.

[Frumple]

I'm a terrible person, my first thought after seeing the "ban guns" and "good luck killing 50 with a knife" was 'trebuchets loaded with knives' and it seems like there are lots of layers of inappropriateness there.

Including poor performance. It's hard enough to kill someone with a flying knife when they're close and you're in relatively precise control, a siege engine induced knife rain probably has worse odds of killing a mass of people than just taking some of the knives and stabbing them by hand.

Any case, if nothing else, can say the LVPD look to deserve some kudos this time. Response time was pretty damn impressive, and it's more than a little likely they stopped a good chunk of people from getting shot up.