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[Max™]

For the life of me I can't figure out what watching animus means, like are you going with Jung or an rpg or something?

It's okay, I'm just saying you're making shit up again.

Again huh, so we've had some sort of interaction before? Remarkable! Sorry bud, took me a while to notice, but I suspect you're looking at this like you're waging some noble crusade against internet tough guys while I'm just trying to correct errors in your understanding of what I said, but as you seem to be fine with said incorrect information and seem to value your opinion of me for some reason, I suppose we should stop cluttering up the thread?

I don't buy that at all. That's like saying that agreeing that we should bomb ISIS is bad, because what we REALLY mean is "bomb all Muslims" (regardless of whether that's what we actually mean). I think "Punch a Nazi" is pretty clear. Punch. A. Nazi.

Or perhaps you want a committee to decide who is a real Nazi? We've done that before too, guillotines and all.

Uh... I thought they were the guys with the little black X-with-broken-bars-dealy on a white background on red armbands throwing hitler salutes and talking about getting rid of minorities?


Anyways, I'm hoping McCain winds up double-dunking on this shit: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/18/john-mccain-obamacare-repeal-vote-242853

[RedKing]

Ok, let me make this easier:

RedKing's Pictorial Field Guide to the American Nazi

Spoiler: Nazis. (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Nazis. (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Douchebags, but devoid of other context, not Nazis. (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Nazis. (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Nazis. The Klan robes and the Confederate flags aren't the issue here so much as the salute. (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Borderline, but without confirming context, not Nazis. Definitely militia nut types though, and likely white supremacists. (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Not a Nazi. (click to show/hide)

I hope this short field guide has been informative, and will allow for proper identification of the American Nazi.




Also, Godwin himself is okay with calling the mooks in Charlottesville Nazis.




EDIT: On the ACA repeal, I'm picturing McCain dressed in a robe, shouting "YOU! SHALL NOT! PASS!" at a roaring piece of legislation, shortly before his death.

[Reelya]

People are also ok with calling a wide variety of other people nazis too. Argument from dictionary definition doesn't disprove general usage.

Milo Y. is mentioned as a punchable Nazi (he's actually a target in the Punch a Nazi game), Ann Coulter also qualifies, so do conservative scholars such as Charles Murray (who was attacked when going to speak at a college, and another academic was injured in the attack). And they do not wear the clown costumes you show in the pictures.

[smjjames]

Lindsey Graham asks what's the difference between socialism and federalism as far as healthcare goes? No, he didn't actually ask that, but he's trying to split the difference between federalized healthcare (isn't that what Medicare is?) and social healthcare.

EDOOOT!: Could we come off of this tight circular argument between the two of you reelya and redking? I don't even know what you two are arguing about anymore other than "who is a nazi?"

[RedKing]

Jesus wept....

Then those people are wrong, and shouldn't go around punching things. Yes, some people call Hillary Clinton a Nazi, no that doesn't give them the right to knock her out.
Now, if she straps on a swastika armband and starts goosestepping around Washington, then yes....by all means, smack her ass down.

However, to say "Nobody should ever punch a Nazi because somewhere, someone might punch a non-Nazi by mistake" is just asinine. It'd be different if we were talking about killing them. But guess what? Our society seems to be fine with the death penalty when there's way more innocent people that get fried/gassed/injected than there are non-Nazis getting mistakenly punched.

That's the last I'll say on it for now. Feel free to PM me if you want to continue this.

[MorleyDev]

It's sooooooo weird as someone outside the USA seeing "socialism or federalism when it comes to your health care" used to encourage people to chose 'federalism'. Like really, it's just strange. Why is "How about, as a society, we don't ask people to choose between bankruptcy and death?" such a bizarre concept to you people?

[EnigmaticHat]

Spoiler: Digression (click to show/hide)

The French Revolution gets maligned too much.  The conditions in France heavily justified the revolution, and it started off very optimistic, even freeing the slaves immediately.  Multiple generals of the great powers of Europe issued proclamations to the effect that when they got to Paris, they would kill every single person who wasn't specifically supporting them and opposing the revolutionaries.  That's what set off the paranoia as people began to doubt their neighbors.  And the guillotinings were mostly confined to Paris, which is why the actual body count is a lot lower than the history books would seem to suggest.  Although some of those killed were leaders within the revolution so it is still very notable.  Its also worth pointing out that while the revolution got sidetracked and produced a dictator anyway, its not a matter of whether it was a good time to live through, its a matter of what France would have been like if they had done nothing.

There's also the issue that the number of people the French killed for being suspected monarchists is far less than the amount of people killed or robbed blind in the American Revolution for being loyalists.  Also that when faced by losing our de facto capital, our response was (according to later historical evidence) to burn the whole thing to the ground.  So if you summarily dismiss the French Revolution as unjustified or going too far, well, what do you have to say about the American one?  There's also the issue where many of the architects of the American Revolution wholeheartedly supported the French one, and Lafayette (without whom we would have almost certainly lost the entire war), was with the French Revolution from start to finish and never completely lost faith in it.

I mean hell, it was less bloody but the French people literally went on a witch hunt for literal nazis and somehow that's never bothered Americans.

There's a great multiple part video about this on youtube.  But I can't for the life of me find it.  It was like a british comedian doing it I believe?  But he had done a lot of research.

This is what people mean when they say truth has become subordinate to politics in the US.  The core of Trump's support is actual neo-nazis.  Trump's foreign policy is pretty consistently what a third world dictator would do.  Trump himself has many key similarities to the actual, literal, not godwin nazi party.  I mean for fuck sakes, we started from "deport 'em all."  From a man who thinks fucking NYC is full of "bad hombres", what could that possibly be besides a bloodless racial purge?

So like, yeah.  If y'all don't want American to be cut in half by two sides with completely different worldviews, stop distorting fact.  Also, Reelya, are you seriously going to use post-9/11 sentiment to argue the left should be weaker in opposing prejudice?  You don't see any irony in using muslim bashing as an example here?

Edit: To be clear about what I mean that.  I know a leftist who has personally beat down a man who was physically assaulting a muslim woman.  And I know of plenty of leftists on Tumblr and other sites who, years after we all should have spoken up, have put up guides on the internet on how to deflect harassment away from muslims on the subway.   Cause the thing is, my generation is willing to speak up.  Muslim bashing is what happens when you have the chickenshit Clinton democrats who do nothing in the face of evil.  And I don't mean Hillary.

Also, "third parties", give me a break.  They're the same damn skinheads RedKing is calling to get punched and you know it.  This shit is why you get accused of being alt-right.

[smjjames]

It's sooooooo weird as someone outside the USA seeing "socialism or federalism when it comes to your health care" used to encourage people to chose federalism. Like really, it's just strange. Why is "How about, as a society, we don't ask people to choose between bankruptcy and death?" such a bizarre concept to you people?

Yeah, it just begs the question of "What's the difference between the two in regards to healthcare?" since Federalism is a common center with distribution at lower levels and I have no idea what he means by a federalized healthcare.

It's pretty obvious that he's throwing red meat to Republicans because socialism is still a massive dogwhistle.

edit: Is "federalized healthcare" even a thing? I have no idea how it's conceptualized since federalism is a method of government, not a governing ideology.

[MorleyDev]

Yeah, it just begs the question of "What's the difference between the two in regards to healthcare?" since Federalism is a common center with distribution at lower levels and I have no idea what he means by a federalized healthcare.

It's pretty obvious that he's throwing red meat to Republicans because socialism is still a massive dogwhistle.

Looking at the summaries of the proposed bill, I'd assume Federalised here is referring to removing the country-wide regulations imposed by Medicare that actually keeps health care usable (like the regulations preventing them from charging more for prior conditions). Because regulations are socialism and socialism is evil, herp-de-derp.

[smjjames]

Are there any real world examples of federalized healthcare that Graham seems to be envisioning though? And no, the EU with it's member states doesn't count.

[Reelya]

Jesus wept....

Then those people are wrong, and shouldn't go around punching things. Yes, some people call Hillary Clinton a Nazi, no that doesn't give them the right to knock her out.
Now, if she straps on a swastika armband and starts goosestepping around Washington, then yes....by all means, smack her ass down.

However, to say "Nobody should ever punch a Nazi because somewhere, someone might punch a non-Nazi by mistake" is just asinine. It'd be different if we were talking about killing them. But guess what? Our society seems to be fine with the death penalty when there's way more innocent people that get fried/gassed/injected than there are non-Nazis getting mistakenly punched.

That's the last I'll say on it for now. Feel free to PM me if you want to continue this.

However, to say "Nobody should ever punch a Nazi because somewhere,

... which is the exact reason nobody has that as their argument. This is a pure strawman since you're arguing against a point I never made or alluded to. When you find yourself concocting pretend arguments to argue against that the other side never made then maybe it's time to step back a bit.

I was arguing against spreading the "punch a nazi" meme, and only that, because of (1) how it spills over to non-nazis. (2) because it's part of a cultural milieu that widens the liberal/conservative gulf in dialogue. Neither of those ideas has anything to do with the idea that "actual nazis are fine and dandy and shouldn't be challenged or punched, ever".

Then those people are wrong, and shouldn't go around punching things.

Which is why you don't promote "punch people you disagree with" memes, even if the literal person you're telling them to punch is worse than Hitler. If you tell people to go punching, dumb people as well as reasonable people will start punching, and you don't get to control who punches whom, or claim innocence when they punch people who don't fit the "literal definition" of who you said to punch. It's irresposible, and the us/them attitude that's contained within it, is actually one of the main cancers of modern US politics.

[RedKing]

Which leads to some !!FUN!! outcomes when you allow each state to decide what is and isn't covered.

inb4 Oklahoma stops requiring vaccinations and starts treating cancer with prayer.

[sluissa]

Spoiler: Digression (click to show/hide)

The French Revolution gets maligned too much.  The conditions in France heavily justified the revolution, and it started off very optimistic, even freeing the slaves immediately.  Multiple generals of the great powers of Europe issued proclamations to the effect that when they got to Paris, they would kill every single person who wasn't specifically supporting them and opposing the revolutionaries.  That's what set off the paranoia as people began to doubt their neighbors.  And the guillotinings were mostly confined to Paris, which is why the actual body count is a lot lower than the history books would seem to suggest.  Although some of those killed were leaders within the revolution so it is still very notable.  Its also worth pointing out that while the revolution got sidetracked and produced a dictator anyway, its not a matter of whether it was a good time to live through, its a matter of what France would have been like if they had done nothing.

There's also the issue that the number of people the French killed for being suspected monarchists is far less than the amount of people killed or robbed blind in the American Revolution for being loyalists.  Also that when faced by losing our de facto capital, our response was (according to later historical evidence) to burn the whole thing to the ground.  So if you summarily dismiss the French Revolution as unjustified or going too far, well, what do you have to say about the American one?  There's also the issue where many of the architects of the American Revolution wholeheartedly supported the French one, and Lafayette (without whom we would have almost certainly lost the entire war), was with the French Revolution from start to finish and never completely lost faith in it.

I mean hell, it was less bloody but the French people literally went on a witch hunt for literal nazis and somehow that's never bothered Americans.

There's a great multiple part video about this on youtube.  But I can't for the life of me find it.  It was like a british comedian doing it I believe?  But he had done a lot of research.

This is what people mean when they say truth has become subordinate to politics in the US.  The core of Trump's support is actual neo-nazis.  Trump's foreign policy is pretty consistently what a third world dictator would do.  Trump himself has many key similarities to the actual, literal, not godwin nazi party.  I mean for fuck sakes, we started from "deport 'em all."  From a man who thinks fucking NYC is full of "bad hombres", what could that possibly be besides a bloodless racial purge?

So like, yeah.  If y'all don't want American to be cut in half by two sides with completely different worldviews, stop distorting fact.  Also, Reelya, are you seriously going to use post-9/11 sentiment to argue the left should be weaker in opposing prejudice?  You don't see any irony in using muslim bashing as an example here?

Re: Digression >> While it's hard to say it's a direct comparison, there's an example just to the North of the USA that would suggest that the American Revolution was entirely unnecessary in the long run... But hindsight and all.

[MorleyDev]

Are there any real world examples of federalized healthcare that Graham seems to be envisioning though? And no, the EU with it's member states doesn't count.

Even if you tried to count the EU, it would look to me to be effectively the complete opposite of what is being proposed here. The EU is all about *pooling resources* between member states, and setting *shared objectives* and establishing *unified regulations*. USA federalism seems to be about *segregating resources* between states and allowing states to act towards *independent goals* with *state-level regulations*.

The two are approaching it from two completely different angles, which makes sense given their histories but still does render them non-comparable on the topic.

[Cheeetar]

Truthfully, if we want to stop Nazism, we should sit down and have a nice talk with them about the pros and cons of killing minorities, and then proceed to do absolutely nothing else. Also, real reason there are so many Nazis? We won World War 2. If only we had lost it, we could have really stopped them.

Nice strawman.

You're using the word 'strawman' incorrectly. It doesn't mean that.

You just approve of other people punching them so you can feel big and tough by proxy.

You're projecting.

What they actually mean by "punch a nazi" is "punch all Republicans", because bona fide actual Nazis are rare enough to not really need a lot of punching to keep them down even in the worst-case scenario.

Dude was wearing a nazi armband and harassing black people. That's who we're discussing being okay punching. Don't be disingenuous.