Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 742 743 [744] 745 746 ... 3564

Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4170701 times)

Trekkin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11145 on: August 18, 2017, 11:42:31 pm »

I'm not really in the mood to discuss economics right now, so instead I'll move our apocalyptic discussion onto a different track: does anyone have concerns about what the effect of the internet is ultimately going to be? It's arguably the most important change in recent history, on-par with manufacturing, and there's no real telling what all of the social effects are going to be.

I think if you wanted to sum up all of the effects of the Internet in four scary words, you could do worse than "society-wide maladaptive daydreaming."

Social media is one big culprit here; everybody wants to look better than the next person, but when the next person is everyone else on Earth, you feel like you can't say anything that isn't gushing about the awesomeness of your life and you for leading it, because at least one of those people hasn't and you don't want to look bad by comparison. I remember this one woman broke up with her ex, badly photoshopped some celebrity's face over his in all her vacation pics, and recaptioned all her pictures to reflect this fictional reality -- and was lauded for what a "cute" idea it was. The only time we post about something bad is when we have someone to blame for it; it's enough to make you think that everyone would be a Fortune 500 CEO astronaut supermodel demigod if it weren't for all those dang oppressors keeping us down. We don't get cancer anymore. We start a fight with cancer, which we know we'll win because we're so "tough." Nobody's fired except because of discrimination. Everyone quits, and everyone was applauding while they did it. This isn't even getting into all the clickbait people post.

We know these are all lies, of course -- but that doesn't stop us believing in them when we want to badly enough, and the Internet makes it so easy to ignore dissenting opinions that there's nobody really trying to pull you back up the rabbit hole. Extremism flourishes in such an environment, but so do less immediately harmful things like woo, because we've all got so much information competing for brain space that lies have a leg up simply because they're simple and appealing.

I worry that there will come a day when people, immersed from birth in a world where the inconvenient can be blocked and any semblance of accuracy is less palatable than carefully crafted lies that sound just a bit better than the last person's, a world where everything and everyone is constantly on display and for sale, will simply forget how to tell when they're being lied to, so strong is their drive to be the perfect people they see on the screen and so pervasive is their belief in themselves.
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11146 on: August 18, 2017, 11:44:24 pm »

And as we know ALL the news on Trump is relevant

Such as the time we was snubbed by a dignitary...

And by snubbed I mean someone interrupted her, shook trumps hand, and then after she shook Trump's hand.

A news story that even Steven Colbert echoed.

But actually that is the only made up Trump story I am aware of outside the crazy people who made up stories about Trump personally assaulting them.
Logged

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11147 on: August 18, 2017, 11:51:33 pm »

You mean the accidential snub by the Polish PM's wife? It was just that, accidential, though the optics of it could be spun. Still, he constantly seeks attention from the media and the media gladly gives it.

The near constant attention getting antics, scandals, and general realityTV-esque behavior don't help either.

Also, Obama got a heck of a lot of attention early on during his 'honeymoon' period, but that cooled down after a while. Trump isn't even giving it a chance to cool down at all.
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11148 on: August 18, 2017, 11:53:16 pm »

You mean the accidential snub by the Polish PM's wife?

That didn't happen period. It wasn't an accidental snub at all if you look at the full footage.

She was trying to shake Trumps hand, someone darted infront of her, she politely waited her turn, (This is usually where the footage stops in Liberal media), and THEN she shook Trumps hand.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 11:55:06 pm by Neonivek »
Logged

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11149 on: August 18, 2017, 11:57:30 pm »

You mean the accidential snub by the Polish PM's wife?

That didn't happen period. It wasn't an accidental snub at all if you look at the full footage.

She was trying to shake Trumps hand, someone darted infront of her, she politely waited her turn, (This is usually where the footage stops in Liberal media), and THEN she shook Trumps hand.

I meant by accidential snub as where it looks like she skips over Trump, goes to Melania and then back to Trump. I didn't see the part where someone walks in front of her. Either way, the optics still look a bit funny.

Also, I just noticed how you put Melania Trump as little 't' Trump and Donald Trump as big 'T' Trump instead of saying mr. or ms., or their first names.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 12:02:06 am by smjjames »
Logged

Not good with names

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11150 on: August 19, 2017, 12:26:24 am »

Alright, here's my take on that article.

At the end of the article it's mentioned that they don't get all the incentives unless they expand up to 13,000 employees, so we'll assume that number. That's a little more than 200k per job, about five years at the average salary.

I see literally nothing wrong with this.

I kid, I kid, but I consider this very acceptable. Industrial jobs tend to create and support more jobs; a 50k average salary for 13,000 people can support a pretty big town. Assuming the factory sticks around, it's more sustainable than just paying them 50k each from the state budget.

I really wish that article said where in Wisconsin this factory would be. I'm curious how 50k stacks up to cost of living in the area. The negotiators for the state could've done a much better job, but I think it's not too terrible a deal.

Edit: Old but gold article, relevant. It /is/ written by a manufacturing dude, but the point gets made.

Edit2: To clarify, I don't particularly support this deal. Wisconsin is in a fairly strong economic position and doesn't need to spend so much cash on one deal. But at the same time, someone has to defend it, right?

I don't think anyone really has to defend it... and I MIGHT agree with you on some level if it weren't coming out of taxpayer pockets to fund the whole thing. You're taking money from people, filtering it through State Government, then FoxConn, then employees, then it goes back to the community it was taken from... maybe. I get that socialism is evil and all, but at the same time, in this one specific case at least, putting that money into social projects or just flat out welfare payments to people would cut out a couple of layers where the money is getting siphoned off and diluted.

There's the argument that after the whole thing is paid off in 4-15 years 2043*, depending on how the math works out, then there might be some potential return on investment. But there's no guarantee of that either. Large companies like FoxConn are more than able to shift locations every few years to take advantage of more favorable political favors. Even any "Loss" on capital they might sustain by abandoning their Wisconsin holdings would work itself out in the accounting.

I'm not even saying that governments helping businesses get started is a bad thing. It often works out well for new and emerging areas of business and for smaller businesses trying to establish a foothold in their first few years. However this isn't anything new, nor is it a small business. This is the worlds 4th largest tech manufacturing company just plopping down another factory to crank out TVs. My big question is if there's even anything in this for FoxConn other than the government subsidies.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#United_States
Wikipedia suggests Wisconsin's budget office isn't even looking at a "break even" point until 2043.
I was thinking about this today, if they're really into that sort of business welfare, then why not put the 50k per job they're investing there into small businesses around the state?  It would make more sense than the state subsidizing one community/county, and small businesses tend to churn capital much more efficiently than a corporate entity would (especially one whose profits would end up going to china anyway).
Logged

Rolan7

  • Bay Watcher
  • [GUE'VESA][BONECARN]
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11151 on: August 19, 2017, 12:46:44 am »

The only sticking point is that he can't fire Mike Pence

Not without a really, REALLY, good reason. The only recent (as in the last 100 years) case for the VP being fired or resinging is Nixons first VP when he got caught up in his own scandal.
No, I mean, he can't fire Mike Pence. The Veep is like the Prez, they can only be impeached. He could pressure Pence to resign if something big came up, but anybody else Trump can still say "You're Fired (TM)" if they refuse to resign and pretend to play nice.
I was under the impression that the President couldn't fire Secretaries without congressional support, but I was apparently remembering the Tenure Of Office Act of 1867-1926.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenure_of_Office_Act_(1867)

For a while Congress's support was necessary, but that was eventually ruled unconstitutional.  I found this bit particularly amusing:
Quote from: Wikipedia, so take a grain of salt
Under the spoils system it had long been accepted practice for the administration of a new party to replace current office holders with party faithful. However, Cleveland, a supporter of a civil service system, had promised to avoid wholesale replacements, vowing to replace incumbents only for cause. When he suspended several hundred office holders for cause, Senate committees requested information from cabinet members regarding the reasons for the suspensions, which Cleveland refused to provide. If he had simply said that the incumbents were being replaced for political reasons, the Senate would have complied, but Cleveland would not do so.
It's odd what I find amusing, heh.
Logged
She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

SalmonGod

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nyarrr
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11152 on: August 19, 2017, 03:19:38 am »

As bad as misinformation on the internet is right now, it's not like people aren't also better informed with real knowledge than they ever have before in addition to the bad stuff.  And those with any shred of honesty and self-awareness to them are especially well off on the information front.

Things are turbulent right now, but it's a huge change that's happened very quickly.  It takes time for human culture and intuition to re-calibrate itself around something like this.  We just need to make sure it does so in a good way.

This is one thing I'm optimistic about.  If civilization can survive its current impulse to consume itself like goddamn Ungoliant, I think the future beyond that is likely to be bright.  But it seems to me like it will make or break within our lifetimes.
Logged
In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11153 on: August 19, 2017, 03:27:23 am »

It is true.

If a news story prints or displays a BAAAAD story... You can now actually get quite a bit of information debunking it.

GOODNESS is it surprising what crud people can get away with without scrutiny. Unfortunately my example is Australian (and hilarious!) and not American so... not for here.

Well I guess there was the whole "Shunned" thing Trump did... But honestly that was just made up Liberal story (Yes for once actual fake news... thanks Trump for making that term come out of my lips like vomit) but had absolutely no real weight or criticism... So meh, not really important.

I guess I could go hunting down for false news stories that have come out recently, but meh...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 03:33:35 am by Neonivek »
Logged

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11154 on: August 19, 2017, 03:34:02 am »

I feel like all the worrying about the internet is in the vein of "Oh everyone is just going to be lazy fucks who spend all day on facebook". But I mean for example there are children being exposed to it at the age of two now, and I'm not convinced our brains were really meant to handle something like it. There are a few corporations controlling the rules, and a bazillion creators (from other companies to youtubers to media organizations) doing all sorts of stuff, and there's no real guarantee that the ultimate results will be, on the whole, a net positive, either for society or individuals.
The internet frees up a lot of your brain which would usually be busy with facts/instructions/directions/trivia and so forth.

That same brain-time can be applied to other things like acquiring new skills, artistic pursuits, more esoteric fields of study, or even just leisure activity and entertainment.

Unfortunately it is far too easy to wind up with all of those potentially available cycles locked up trying to keep track of a vastly more expanded web of social relations and interactions than any human being has ever had to deal with at a time, much less all the time.

I accumulated a huge trove of useless facts, literally the only possible use for most of said trove is Jeopardy. I still like to add to my hoard of pointless information, but when I need to pull up a particular bit of information and it doesn't immediately pop into focus then it has become a reflex to open or switch to another tab and fire off a quick search. Large portions of my brain sit on the far side of this screen from me.

When I don't have access to my computer it isn't a case of "oh darn, that thing I use is not where I am" and more "I miss that chunk of my brain which I can't feel right now" which I'd be surprised to find is unusual amongst internet users below a certain age.

My mother-in-law uses her computer as a toy and occasionally useful tool when it occurs  to her, but I don't think she feels like she's missing an eye or a few fingers when it is gone.

Consider this hypothetical where tomorrow you have to accept one or the other of these conditions:

a. your left or right eye is glued shut for the entire day and the index+middle fingers of the opposite hand are glued together for the same period

or

b. you can not make use of any device with an internet connection or log into your user accounts on any devices you own


What seems more awful?

But even if there was a tornado everyday in the USA, people would get really tired of reading about every single one.
Taking this to mean EF3+ every day, as an EF1~EF2 isn't really newsworthy when you're close enough to have it try to kick your ass, but when you start up into the EF4~EF5 range, yeah, if they were hitting the us every day, even though it would be biblical level end of days type shit, after a hundred or two days of that your state of alarm upon hearing about another is going to be pretty damn close to your baseline I'd imagine.

Accordingly that makes this a fantastic descriptor for the Trump presidency: after 8 months of this shit it took him coming across as soft on neo-fucking-nazis to produce the sort of shocked "what the fuck kind of president does this?" response which any number of other things he's been doing would suffice for a normal presidency.
Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11155 on: August 19, 2017, 06:13:03 am »

We know that there are far more firearms deaths than worth reporting in the US (it's much like vehicle deaths, local news unless it isn't).

It takes something extraordinary to need reporting. (Latest: the Kissimmee shootings - any actual sign this was more than bog-standard Criminal-On-Cop, though? Seems to me that it's barely newsworthy. Notwithstanding that it still involves somebodies' sons, husbands and fathers (potentially)...)
Logged

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11156 on: August 19, 2017, 06:59:03 am »

It's arguably the most important change in recent history, on-par with manufacturing, and there's no real telling what all of the social effects are going to be.
Like, everything else aside. I'm old enough to remember a good bit of things before the 'net really kicked in, and been around people much of my life that had a good chunk of their lives pass before the internet came about at all.

It's a net positive. It's a net fucking positive. It's a massive fucking net positive. My eyes feel like they want to gouge out parts of my skull right now, so putting this in better words probably isn't going to happen all that effectively.

But, like. I've said it before. I'll say it again. The past was shit. It was shit. Every aspect that's piss poor about the 'net was just as bad or worse before it, just more localized, with less choice and information access involved, and so on. People had their head stuck up the ass of social interaction pre-net, too, they just did it within the context of their town/neighborhood/etc. People wasted free time doing sod all (drinking was always fun!) pre-net, it's just the amount they could do with it was less, due to lack of ability to communicate, coordinate, check information about X, Y, or Z, and so on.

Every aspect of the creative arts were comparatively hobbled; there is currently literally no part of the creative sphere of human efforts that has not seen quantitative, and generally qualitative as well, improvement. Literally none. Music, writing, drawn arts, performance, bloody everything. Over the course of around the 90s all that shit basically exploded. We're currently seeing processes in the development of genres and styles that would have taken decades or centuries pre-net, because there is basically nothing better for an artist of any stripe than having what amounts to the near total of their respective interest at their fingertips, and nothing better for a field of any stripe than having what amounts to the near total of their techniques and whatnot at the fingertips of people interested in them. What would have taken days, weeks, and a bucketload of cash just to find (initial instructions, someone willing to teach, examples or points of inspiration, partners for one project or another, and so on) now can take minutes or hours, and cost nothing but the time and bandwidth. Even with whatever inefficiencies or whathaveyou it introduces, the gains outweigh them to the point it's almost farcical. I've talked with art folks that would very much very literally kill to keep the state of things in that area from rolling back four or five decades.

Every aspect of the productive aspects of personal and societal output were hobbled. The ability to reach out to other people doing the same thing, share methodology, arrange to split projects, figure out where resource X, Y, or Z is and how to best get it, etc., has increased by something approaching an order or two of magnitude. People can spend a week or two with their head up their own ass, because half the time they're still getting shit done faster than they would have when it would have otherwise taken days or weeks just for a request or some shit to reach its recipient to begin with, never mind anything come of it.

The information bubbles were harder to pop, the vitriol more local and you damn sure better believe no nicer for it -- just quieter at the best -- just basically bloody everything was worse, and everything it had that wasn't is still here. Half the time having your head up the ass of social media 9/10ths of your time still has the remaining 1/10th do more than you would have done with it in the full 10/10ths a half century ago 'cause you bloody couldn't do things with chunks of it then, the infrastructure to enable it on an information and communication level didn't exist. Every problem the damned internet causes is either less than it was previously, such that it doesn't actually remove whatever came before it that mitigated the problem, opens up several times the options that previously existed to deal with it, or about a half-dozen things beside.

Just... seriously. I would say with very, very little hesitation that the internet, for all its associated issues, is straight up the most important thing our species has done to date, bar none. Best thing, too, relatively, though there's a good chunk of other things that're closer to it on that front. It's a communicative paradigm shift for a social species that has its best performance come out when collaborating, and has even individual efforts improve when access to certain breakpoints of information. Goddamn thing is a force multiplier for humanity like we've never seen before, and it's just getting started. Its problems are problems relative to itself and what it enables, and often enough gains from yesteryear anyway. A century ago this shit would have been more magic than just about anything else we can do. The internet has made goddamn wizards of all of us.

a. your left or right eye is glued shut for the entire day and the index+middle fingers of the opposite hand are glued together for the same period

or

b. you can not make use of any device with an internet connection or log into your user accounts on any devices you own


What seems more awful?
B, no doubt, no hesitation. For me it's less like an eye or a few fingers than it is an arm or a leg. As y'say, it's like part of your brain is missing, and as y'note, it's because part of it functionally is, now that many of us are effectively cyborgs storing part of our cognitive functions in external hardware. which we do because just good goddamn we built the crap to take over that stuff for a reason, and the reason is it's a lot better, or at the absolute least a lot more consistent, at whatever it is than we are otherwise
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11157 on: August 19, 2017, 07:31:29 am »

Wait wait wait... Sorry for dragging up dead topics

Did Bernie Sanders actually give a White Guilt speech during the election campaign?

Yeah sorry Bernie Sanders but many White Americans know what it is like to live in a Ghetto, many White Americans know what it is like to be poor, and yeah some white people know what it is like to be dragged out of a car (though I don't think that is a common experience for either group). (These aren't random points, he brings up these three)

I am starting to SERIOUSLY question his "Liberal Savior" status. Tell me he got SOME flak for this crud or at least clarified this obvious bait.

Maybe I was looking at the American election in the wrong way given both sides race baited like MAD, and I don't even mean Hillary's really condescending "Ohh you have my back Minorities!"

OHH MY GOODNESS!!! this is what the next election is going to be isn't it?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 07:37:34 am by Neonivek »
Logged

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11158 on: August 19, 2017, 07:45:13 am »

snip
Where's the like button where you need it?
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread: D. C. on summer break
« Reply #11159 on: August 19, 2017, 07:45:53 am »

snip
Where's the like button where you need it?

This is politics you're not supposed to like anything.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 742 743 [744] 745 746 ... 3564