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[misko27]

Trump is not capable of sticking to a script for long it seems. Given how often this (Trump says something offensive/rude/weird/illogical/insane-> People are upset-> Trump dithers for a while, then releases milder statement that addresses the concerns-> Trump double-downs on original statement) happens, I think that what happens is his advisors sort of force him into taking the moderate position, then when he's alone he gets annoyed at having been criticized and the furor not immediately dying down and so lashes out by doubling down.

I think what it is for Trump is that he just can't bring himself to denounce people for supporting him. He really, really does not care about policy, he cares about himself: these people are on his side, those people criticizing him or not. It makes perfect sense except for the fact that the people supporting him are in some cases people with terrible views that should be a politician should, at least, distance themselves from. But he doesn't see it like that, he sees "people I don't like telling me off for not hating people who like me."

[nenjin]

You know what i find hilarious? the fact the American fascists are "white nationalists", that's so goddam American. Its just absurd, ethnic nationalism doesn't really work with Americans because we have no real ethnicity being probably at least three different ones one average at minimum and not the same ones as our neighbors. so they have to go with the most broad category imaginable. their the most inclusive fascists ever.

....what? They want a country for, by and of white people. That's ethnic nationalism, and it fits the beliefs of some Americans just fine.

Ethnic nationalism, also known as ethno-nationalism, is a form of nationalism wherein the "nation" is defined in terms of ethnicity. The central theme of ethnic nationalists is that "nations are defined by a shared heritage, which usually includes a common language, a common faith, and a common ethnic ancestry".

Fascism and Nationalism are not one in the same, but nor are they mutually exclusive.

Anyways, I like how Trump has decided to wade into the statue issue himself like this debate hasn't already been held in the country years before he came president. No wonder the white nationalists are bolstered by him when he responds to these events with bone headed shit like "oh yeah, well Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, should take down his statue too?!?!" So very presidential of him. But I guess coming from the King of Twitter I shouldn't be surprised.

[Frumple]

I'd just like to interject that Fields hasn't been charged with terrorism, and I sort of feel it's jumping the gun to say it was a terrorist attack. The guy's a diagnosed schizophrenic, and until his trial he isn't going to get any chance to defend himself.

I'm not trying to make excuses for the guy; I personally feel he's a murderous asshat. But, until there's been an investigation and a trial, nobody'll know for sure what actually happened.

Yeah, see, while if you're asking my legal opinion I'd agree with that, in context of our POTUS? Nah man. This is the exact sort of thing he shat on the mayor of goddamn london for, and if he waited for an investigation on that one it's news to me. The definition of terrorist I'm rolling with right now is the same one he used, and probably being used more cautiously.

Regardless of what the legal definition is, or what the man is eventually convicted of, so far as our president is concerned, the POTUS is acting to downplay the actions of a group that had one of their members commit what he has called, and stridently, terrorist attacks. So I'll keep calling them that, because that's the context our nazi sympathizing craven shit in chief is working from.

E: Incidentally, my still living grandfather may happen to be a WW2 vet, and for all his faults one of the people in my life that I respect the most, and who has done the most for me. This is shitting on him, it's shitting on his fellow military that killed and died to stop that ideology, and it's shitting on this country and every other one, including the one we fucking nuked, that were fucked by the sort people folks in that rally were marching with. There may be some vitriol at this point.

[Playergamer]

redwallzyl is saying that they have to be more inclusive because most ethno-nationalists focus on a subgroup, i.e. Nazis focusing on Germanic Aryans instead of all Europeans. Since America is so mixed, they have to go one step up to the less well-defined "white people."

I'd just like to interject that Fields hasn't been charged with terrorism, and I sort of feel it's jumping the gun to say it was a terrorist attack. The guy's a diagnosed schizophrenic, and until his trial he isn't going to get any chance to defend himself.

I'm not trying to make excuses for the guy; I personally feel he's a murderous asshat. But, until there's been an investigation and a trial, nobody'll know for sure what actually happened.

Yeah, see, while if you're asking my legal opinion I'd agree with that, in context of our POTUS? Nah man. This is the exact sort of thing he shat on the mayor of goddamn london for, and if he waited for an investigation on that one it's news to me. The definition of terrorist I'm rolling with right now is the same one he used, and probably being used more cautiously.

Regardless of what the legal definition is, or what the man is eventually convicted of, so far as our president is concerned, the POTUS is acting to downplay the actions of a group that had one of their members commit what he has called, and stridently, terrorist attacks. So I'll keep calling them that, because that's the context our nazi sympathizing craven shit in chief is working from.

Yeah, I edited my post because I realized I didn't say my point very well. Trump definitely should not add fuel to this fire.

((Quick response bcuz ninja yay))

[nenjin]

Since America is so mixed, they have to go one step up to the less well-defined "white people."

That group started with British aristocracy and has slowly encompassed every group of ethnically Caucasian immigrants that has come to this country since. They've in turn shit on each other until another, more easily marginalized group appeared. British, German, Irish, even to a lesser extent Italians, have all been victimized and in turn victimized newly arriving groups.

So yeah, while their slogan may not be as specific or well defined as your garden variety European white nationalist, I don't think they have to stretch very far, especially as Americans define race. We tend to forget out core heritage after enough generations have passed, leaving only the question of whether you're white, or not white.

[Starver]

Ok I am going to ask an odd question:

Has Antifa used homosexuals as their validity card?

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some that did use that, given liberals, but as a whole? I don't know.

For the sake of us old fogies still not used to words we understand in isolation being thrown together in a kind of modern fandango (often with weird nouning, verbiage and adjectivalism involved)...  Translation, please?

[smjjames]

Ok I am going to ask an odd question:

Has Antifa used homosexuals as their validity card?

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some that did use that, given liberals, but as a whole? I don't know.

For the sake of us old fogies still not used to words we understand in isolation being thrown together in a kind of modern fandango (often with weird nouning, verbiage and adjectivalism involved)...  Translation, please?

I'm sure you've heard of the 'gender card' or 'woman card' or 'race card', it's like that, except for LGBT.

[Frumple]

Good sodding god, I didn't quite realize I had this rage button. Apparently when you go up and put folks standing up to nazis on the same level as nazis, effectively equating folks like my grandfather, and what other WW2 vets are still alive (never mind all the dead ones), with the fucking Wehrmacht, something in me has a good try at going incandescent. Not something I run over very often.

[SalmonGod]

Spoiler: Haven't caught up on this thread today, but felt like sharing a couple anonymous quotes I've seen passed around online today. (click to show/hide)

I've been weirded out be a lot of things this year, but "Anti-Fascist" as a collective description is a new one.  "Anti-fascist" shouldn't be a movement or a group.  It should be your default state.  You're SUPPOSED to be anti-fascist.

It shouldn't be "Nazis clashed with anti-fascists."  It should be "Nazis clashed with people, because people are supposed to fucking clash with Nazis."

They weren't "Alt-Right."  They were literally holding Swastika flags and throwing Roman salutes.  They're fucking Nazis.

You supposed to be anti fucking that.

White Supremacists and fascists have co-opted your liberalism.  They've trained you to say things like "on both sides" and "violence is not the answer"  They've left ideas like centrism and horeshoe theory on your doorsteps.  They don't want you to oppose them.

They want you to stay in that comfortable middle ground, so you act as a bugger between them and their opposition.  You're their bodyguards.

Stop being complacent.  Stop being complicit.  You don't have to go out getting in fistfights with Nazis or pepper sprayed by the cops, but for fuck's sake - stop helping them.  Denounce them.

Be vocal.  Stop making apologies for them.  If you can't say "no" to the damn KKK or people waving swastika flags, what are you good for?  Stop feeling enlightened in your cowardice.  Take a damn side.

And here's a little something to once again re-iterate what's at stake.  Why these equivalencies are false.  Why what we face is more than political speech.

[Neonivek]

Anti-Fascist and Anti-Racist makes sense but here is how to better understand them

A Normal person is Anti-Fascist and Anti-Racist...

A Anti-Fascist and Anti-Racists hunts those people down and harasses them, punishes them, doxes them.

Ok ok, I am being harsh those are only the more extreme examples...

It is more like they are Advocates specifically like that (So a normal person versus an advocate)... But they often just kind of end up like an alternate type of hate group... but to say it always does is dishonest.

[Loud Whispers]

Stop being complacent.  Stop being complicit.  You don't have to go out getting in fistfights with Nazis or pepper sprayed by the cops, but for fuck's sake - stop helping them.  Denounce them.

Be vocal.  Stop making apologies for them.  If you can't say "no" to the damn KKK or people waving swastika flags, what are you good for?  Stop feeling enlightened in your cowardice.  Take a damn side.

If you are not with me, you are against me

[WealthyRadish]

Since America is so mixed, they have to go one step up to the less well-defined "white people."

That group started with British aristocracy and has slowly encompassed every group of ethnically Caucasian immigrants that has come to this country since. They've in turn shit on each other until another, more easily marginalized group appeared. British, German, Irish, even to a lesser extent Italians, have all been victimized and in turn victimized newly arriving groups.

So yeah, while their slogan may not be as specific or well defined as your garden variety European white nationalist, I don't think they have to stretch very far, especially as Americans define race. We tend to forget out core heritage after enough generations have passed, leaving only the question of whether you're white, or not white.

I don't think they're worth taking seriously. What I find funny about it is that there's no way for the "white nationalists" to possibly conceal the racist nature of their movement with a name like that, so at least that particular part of the alt-right seems doomed to irrelevance. Typically ethno-nationalist groups (in countries where their ethnic group is the majority) are able to flit around denying racist motives with plausibility, while separatist ethno-nationalists who are a minority can often gain sympathy abroad regardless of political affiliation and with no implications of racism (e.g., Kurdish nationalists). But here in the US, having it be all about generic "white people" makes it completely impossible for them to claim it's about anything other than racism, and get sympathy from people who are not already way on the fringe.

[ChairmanPoo]

Stop being complacent.  Stop being complicit.  You don't have to go out getting in fistfights with Nazis or pepper sprayed by the cops, but for fuck's sake - stop helping them.  Denounce them.

Be vocal.  Stop making apologies for them.  If you can't say "no" to the damn KKK or people waving swastika flags, what are you good for?  Stop feeling enlightened in your cowardice.  Take a damn side.

If you are not with me, you are against me

If you are not with me, then you're my enemy

[smjjames]

Trump is not capable of sticking to a script for long it seems. Given how often this (Trump says something offensive/rude/weird/illogical/insane-> People are upset-> Trump dithers for a while, then releases milder statement that addresses the concerns-> Trump double-downs on original statement) happens, I think that what happens is his advisors sort of force him into taking the moderate position, then when he's alone he gets annoyed at having been criticized and the furor not immediately dying down and so lashes out by doubling down.

I think what it is for Trump is that he just can't bring himself to denounce people for supporting him. He really, really does not care about policy, he cares about himself: these people are on his side, those people criticizing him or not. It makes perfect sense except for the fact that the people supporting him are in some cases people with terrible views that should be a politician should, at least, distance themselves from. But he doesn't see it like that, he sees "people I don't like telling me off for not hating people who like me."

That he can't stick to a script for long isn't new, we saw that during the campaign. His campaign staff had a REALLY hard time getting him to stick to a script and while he can stick to a script when he really wants to, he veers off frequently.

Now that the campaign is over (not including his stupid 2020 campaign thing), there is less pressure on getting him to stick to a script, so, he freewheels as much as he'd just about like to.

Basically, campaigning =/= governing.

[Loud Whispers]

Stop being complacent.  Stop being complicit.  You don't have to go out getting in fistfights with Nazis or pepper sprayed by the cops, but for fuck's sake - stop helping them.  Denounce them.

Be vocal.  Stop making apologies for them.  If you can't say "no" to the damn KKK or people waving swastika flags, what are you good for?  Stop feeling enlightened in your cowardice.  Take a damn side.

If you are not with me, you are against me

If you are not with me, then you're my enemy

Don't do it antifa, I have the upwind