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[Neonivek]

Clearly, you have never been to an egyptology exhibit at a museum of world history then.

Just including this quote because I kicked it off the page...

I don't see too many people clambering to set up Isis statues to teach us about the horrors that whole shit show.

Uhh... There are plenty of monuments that do that.

I don't know of many people who like to set up monuments before the problem has either been dealt with or have been going on for a long time.

I don't know many WW2 Memorials that were installed before WW2 ended (except maybe ones that weren't intended as memorials... until after the war)

[smjjames]

I think, you know. Books, are to teach history. Statues are to venerate it.

I don't see too many people clambering to set up Isis statues to teach us about the horrors that whole shit show.

Clearly, you have never been to an egyptology exhibit at a museum of world history then.

Nice comeback, but really, that's an entirely different period.

A statue could definetly teach history, if it's designed with that in mind. Though the problem is that it's subject to the sculptors own bias. Of course, photographs are worth a billion words.

[wierd]

Missing the real point there SMJJames--

If all the statues of ISIS were destroyed by angry mobs in the centuries prior, how would the historians display them to curate the truth of the region's history for the current, and future generations?

[Neonivek]

May I ask how many of those statues ARE trying to tell you that racism is good?

[Frumple]

... and for those without a cursory understanding of the ancient Egyptian pantheon, Isis is one of its major divinities. ISIS is the present day murder people thing.

[ChairmanPoo]

You know I had a bit of confusion thinking people rambling against ancient Egyptian religion.

Neonivel's poor capitalization is to blame

[smjjames]

You know I had a bit of confusion thinking people rambling against ancient Egyptian religion.

Neonivel's poor capitalization is to blame

Yeah, I guess that's what made me miss wierd's point and the other confusion that followed.

[wierd]

I did indeed fall victim there, but-- still not completely improper invocation.

Isis, deity-- was once at the forefront of religiously themed aggression. (Egypt did a lot of conquest.)
ISIS, the radical islamic state, is currently at the forefront of religiously themed aggression.

The destruction of the artifacts of the historical period before egyptian conquest has been a subject basically every egyptologist has cried rivers over. Hell, even within the realm of the late kingdoms, the demolition of the monuments to tutenkhamun (sp?) by the usurper king Ai, is a sad subject.

Destruction of monuments denies future historians and societies the chance to read and study them, because of the petty jealousies and hatreds of today. It is wrong in and of itself on a matter of principle.

[smjjames]

May I ask how many of those statues ARE trying to tell you that racism is good?

Just to explain, ISIS is massively iconoclast and think statues of anything is heresy, plus they were trying to erase history.

edit: Partly ninja'd.

[WealthyRadish]

I don't believe there's any obligation to maintain public monuments from a previous time that do not reflect the current values and preferences of the people living in that area

Waaait a minute... isn't this revisionist?

That we should teach history in a way that benefits our current morals and ideals?

Removing a statue from public prominence doesn't revise the historical record. As I said, it reflects a change in the stated values of a society. Destroying all evidence of some historical event to try and erase it from the future record would be revisionism (or maybe negationism if we want to be pedantic), and so is putting up statues that deliberately misrepresent the record.

Not to mention that it is foolish and wrong-- Find me a Greek alive today who would venerate Helios the way he was when the colossus at Rhodes was built-- If the statue had survived the earthquake, should it be removed because the cult of helios isnt the dominant religion?

After all, it was JUST an over-done monument to surviving a siege by some dusty old king from the ancient world-- and has little bearing on the thoughts, minds, or concerns of modern people..


Personally, a better approach to "I am ashamed of my past, so I will delete and deny!!", which is exactly what destroying a monument is, I would erect a new monument next to, or around the old one, which changes the tone.  Fancy memorial statue making some war criminal asshat out to look like some tragically misunderstood messiah? Erect a monument around it, depicting the truth as you see it, employing the imagery of the first monument against itself, and give a plaque on both.

A statue as old as the colossus of Rhodes would have long lost any political significance that the modern people of Rhodes or Greece would object to, and the same is true of nearly all historical monuments. I'm not saying that monuments should be destroyed (in fact I think they should always be preserved somewhere regardless of context), I'm saying that they shouldn't be prominent public fixtures if the local people abhor the values they represent.

[Neonivek]

May I ask how many of those statues ARE trying to tell you that racism is good?

Just to explain, ISIS is massively iconoclast and think statues of anything is heresy, plus they were trying to erase history.

edit: Partly ninja'd.

And you know... We only want to rewrite history in order to say that the entire south is racist and that the Civil war was completely just with the North as the glorious hallowed heroes. That the racism that the South committed is so systematic that the government, law enforcement, and everyone is now racist because of the south.

That absolutely no one in the South deserves any dignity or sympathy.

Which CLEARLY more accurately fits reality.

---

This is why "In the Heat of the Night" is the most racist show EVER depicted.

Because it shows Southern cops in a sympathetic light.

---

I dunno... "My Revisionism is better than your revisionism" is an odd statement. Since we aren't talking about statues that are racist...

[Trekkin]

And you know... We only want to rewrite history in order to say that the entire south is racist and that the Civil war was completely just with the North as the glorious hallowed heroes. That the racism that the South committed is so systematic that the government, law enforcement, and everyone is now racist because of the south.

Which CLEARLY more accurately fits reality.

Actually (and apparently I failed to get this point across earlier) I mostly want the statues in a museum somewhere, in the Lost Cause of the South exhibit, with a plaque explaining how they were part of a deliberate campaign of misinformation to lionize selected generals and pretend that the Confederacy did not secede over slavery.

The subjects of the statues are significant historical figures. That they had statues made of them and why is also significant, but in a different way -- and arguably a more troubling one given how recently the statues were made.

[wierd]

hyperbole and strawmen really dont belong in honest discussion, no matter how passionately we feel.

Creating a new monument next to, or around, an old monument, especially where the original inscriptions and imagery of the first monument are totally untouched, asserts the current generation's views, in opposition to the old, while preserving the old.  In future generations, the reprisal is just as interesting and useful, historically, as the original overture.

Removal from their original placements, destruction, defacement, and worst of all, revisionism after the fact, are all crimes against history.  History is never deleted, no matter how much it may be an indignity to us now. Something we are ashamed of, is still something we can draw strength from, as we can look at those icons, and say "Never again", and the constant reminder of that tainted past will constantly compel us to a better future.

[Trekkin]

Something we are ashamed of, is still something we can draw strength from, as we can look at those icons, and say "Never again", and the constant reminder of that tainted past will constantly compel us to a better future.

Which must be weighed against all the people who look at those icons and say "yes, please, again, now and forever", as was their original intent.

[smjjames]

May I ask how many of those statues ARE trying to tell you that racism is good?

Just to explain, ISIS is massively iconoclast and think statues of anything is heresy, plus they were trying to erase history.

edit: Partly ninja'd.

And you know... We only want to rewrite history in order to say that the entire south is racist and that the Civil war was completely just with the North as the glorious hallowed heroes. That the racism that the South committed is so systematic that the government, law enforcement, and everyone is now racist because of the south.

That absolutely no one in the South deserves any dignity or sympathy.

Which CLEARLY more accurately fits reality.

Most of those fighting in the South weren't the rich people that owned the slaves and perpetuated the system, most of them were the poor farmers and landowners. There were certainly some who didn't like the idea of slavery, but perhaps were forced into it via social norms. I'm saying that it's an oversimplification and atrocities were definetly committed on both sides.

History is best seen when looking at multiple points of view, but that doesn't mean that it's glorifying or giving any dignity to the South.

As I've said before, we've never really had the kind of reconcillation with our past that other countries have had with theirs. Kind of almost we don't want to reconcile with it.