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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4259819 times)

Descan

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8445 on: June 25, 2017, 10:28:21 pm »

It was more a cultural genocide then hitlery kill them all genocide. we did put them into boarding schools and do the whole "kill the Indian save the man" thing. but a genocide non the less. also they don't care what you call them, though if your knowledgeable they would probably prefer their tribe name.

Seriously, the boarding schools were legendarily horrific.

That isn't in dispute, nor is is the notion that Europeans exploited their higher technology and cultural cohesion to gain significant advantage over the natives. All I am saying is that the modern "The innocent Native Americans were an enlightened society that were butchered by the barbarous Europeans for no reason other than greed" story is every bit as racist and demeaning to the natives as the old "It is the White Man's Manifest Destiny to spread out and bring civilization to the godless heathens". This is because it deprives the natives of any agency in their own fate, and reduces them to nothing more than a helpless victim.


Also, "genocide" means "trying to kill every last one of them". If there was no deliberate effort to do that, then there was no genocide.
And yet people say historical revisionism is bad. Changing "It is the White Man's Manifest Destiny to spread out and bring civilization to the godless heathens" to "The innocent Native Americans were an enlightened society that were butchered by the barbarous Europeans for no reason other than greed" is historical revisionism. Changing it *back* to the Manifest Destiny is historical revisionism. Adjusting it to reflect the actual diversity of native societies and their responses to European colonialism? Historical Revisionism.

Like, it's a fucking academic field, it's not a bunch of bureaucrats in Downtown Head Office just fucking with history to make a point. Any multiple of legitimate reasons exist to revise the historical record, from the Obvious of new data coming to light, or new methods of cataloguing and working with old data, to a culture previously relegated to the backwater achieving national prominence and a focus on their history that was previously unremarked on and wasn't bothered with by academia, to other fields of science opening up new possibilities of data collection, like DNA samples (as opposed to like, finding a new stone tool that changes when humans first entered an area, which would be an example of new data, this is new *types* of data) to debates about causation; The facts aren't in dispute, A happened then B happened then C happened, but whether A caused B caused C or B and C were both caused by A or if they were all caused by like, sub-A or something that was previously considered unimportant? That's stuff that can and should be thought about, debated, revised, and worked on.

And that's not even getting into that it's less A B and C, and more B, F, and H, and all the intervening letters are just not focused on as "unimportant," historical revisionism could just as easily be going through those unimportant events and shining new light on them and going "see, yeah, this actually matters, doods."

You know who else hated historical revisionism? HITLER!
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 10:29:53 pm by Descan »
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8446 on: June 25, 2017, 10:50:54 pm »

Quote
And yet people say historical revisionism is bad. Changing "It is the White Man's Manifest Destiny to spread out and bring civilization to the godless heathens" to "The innocent Native Americans were an enlightened society that were butchered by the barbarous Europeans for no reason other than greed" is historical revisionism. Changing it *back* to the Manifest Destiny is historical revisionism. Adjusting it to reflect the actual diversity of native societies and their responses to European colonialism? Historical Revisionism.

 I am not sure what your point is... "Changing it from one inaccurate version to another... To another inaccurate version... to another inaccurate version is Historical Revisionism! See there is no way to escape!"

Though "Adjusting it to reflect the actual diversity of native societies and their responses to European Colonialism" isn't "Historical Revisionism" it is "History"
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8447 on: June 25, 2017, 11:05:14 pm »

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The whole point of historical revisionism is that sometimes what we understand as history has to be revised to reflect new information

Are we talking about amending history or are we talking about Revisionist History? Stop using them interchangeably.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8448 on: June 25, 2017, 11:08:11 pm »

Historical Negationism is very specific.

Are we talking about Amending History OR Historical Revisionism?
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8449 on: June 25, 2017, 11:15:36 pm »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_negationism
Quote
Historical negationism or denialism is an illegitimate distortion of the historical record. It is often imprecisely referred to as historical revisionism, but that term also denotes a legitimate academic pursuit of re-interpretation of the historical record and questioning the accepted views.

Historical Negationism is very specific.

Are we talking about Amending History OR Historical Revisionism?

I was talking about Historical Negationism as described in the wiki article, not amending history when new facts are found.

Then again, all of this is unnecessary semantics cluttering up a thread with far more meaningful content to fill it both now and in the coming weeks.

Yeah, it is unneccesary semantics. Happens from time to time.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8450 on: June 25, 2017, 11:41:15 pm »

... y'know, for all I've seen the usage plenty over the years, and observed historical revisionism used in its place, this is the first time I've ever seen negationism. Not just first time used that way, but first time period. Spellcheck on this browser doesn't even recognize it as a word. Been through college level history courses, been through friggin' philosophy of history classes, not exactly unexposed to history-y people doing history-y things, but never heard or seen anyone use the term before these last few posts.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8451 on: June 26, 2017, 12:02:33 am »

It is possible the word itself has seen "revisionism" of its own as a way to legitimize its current form.

OR it is possible that the negativity surrounding revisionism itself has lead to it being considered synonymous with negation.

OR! It is like Schizo and how it is confused for MPS for no other reason then it is used incorrectly.

Yes I have read academic papers and taken university courses on Historical Revisionism and they ALL use "Negation" as the definition. I have never outside today seen it used in any other way.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8452 on: June 26, 2017, 12:48:07 am »

I'm with Frumple. Outside of this thread and the links used in this thread, I've NEVER heard "Historical Negation" as a term before.
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8453 on: June 26, 2017, 01:04:21 am »

That's... kinda close to a personal attack there Max, but seems like that's you being sarcastic or something.
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In politics news: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/25/justice-kennedy-retire-supreme-court-239940

Goddammit Kennedy don't you dare.

The next SCOTUS fight is going to be the REAL battle I tell you. Unfortunately, the Republicans already nuked the 60 vote thing, and I believe they had to use Pence's vote in Gorsuch's case.
Lord, just let Ginsburg and Kennedy hang on.
Genocide has to be intentional. Thats the definition, and I strongly resist attempts to change that because it weakens and softens the words meaning to allow unintentional death to be a genocide.

Genocide doesnt have to mean total extermination or the attempt at a total extermination - if you kill 50,000 of a theoretical cultural sect for being incompatible with your own views, its a genocide even if you dont invade the surrounding countries to go after all the other members.

A mass murder or campaign of mass murder based on ethnicity is plenty to count as a genocide, but it has to have been done on purpose.
The USA is one of the countries that pushed to remain immune to prosecution for certain aspects of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention, and was one of the four countries that voted against the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_the_Rights_of_Indigenous_Peoples given our history it is understandable, but hey if you really dislike the use of the term there, you could try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocide on for size?

Back to the topic, I've said it, seen it said, and now here's someone else talking about how (near the end) looking back it seems we didn't appreciate Mitt enough: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/24/intellectual-conservatives-lost-republican-trump-215259
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8454 on: June 26, 2017, 01:48:12 am »

Historical Negationism is very specific.

Are we talking about Amending History OR Historical Revisionism?
(No. The question is why are we talking about this, at suffocating and interminable length?  New thread, please!?!)
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8455 on: June 26, 2017, 01:53:55 am »

Historical Negationism is very specific.

Are we talking about Amending History OR Historical Revisionism?
(No. The question is why are we talking about this, at suffocating and interminable length?  New thread, please!?!)

Why a new thread when this IS American Politics like... Directly?

This isn't the "We hate Trump" thread :P
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8456 on: June 26, 2017, 02:17:53 am »

I really don't want to appear like I'm anti-Semantic, but you're drifted away from the politics itself and might as well be arguing over what the meaning of "is" is...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 02:43:19 am by Starver »
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8457 on: June 26, 2017, 02:21:49 am »

I think what hurts my enthusiasm with the current batch of politics is it hit that point where something should happen... but nothing is and nothing will be.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8458 on: June 26, 2017, 02:52:00 am »

I feel like analyzing something after all these semantics.
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Gizogin

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8459 on: June 26, 2017, 06:23:41 am »

Hey, if you want to analyze something, take a look at this tweet from Fox News: https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/879114190522339330. Since I'm posting from my phone, I'm not going to try to quote it properly here. The gist is that Sean Spicer is saying that the President's hinting about the possible existence of "tapes" was actually a brilliant ploy to keep Comey honest. So... Comey's testimony is accurate now, according to the White House?

By the way, this is also the stance of the President himself. As in, Trump said in an interview that the "tapes" comment kept Comey honest. That has to be the most self-defeating position the President has taken in, what, a whole week? It both confirms all the damaging statements Comey made and gives more fuel to the current obstruction investigation.
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