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[origamiscienceguy]

So apparently, the anti-statehood movement in Puerto Rico has taken the strategy of just boycotting the vote.

I see the strategy. Try to get a bunch of people to say "over 90% support independence" and then invalidate them by saying nobody bothered to vote in the referendum anyway. That's frigging devious.

That could backfire. In the future, nobody will remember who boycotted the vote, but the numbers will still be there.

[Wolfhunter107]

So apparently, the anti-statehood movement in Puerto Rico has taken the strategy of just boycotting the vote.

I see the strategy. Try to get a bunch of people to say "over 90% support independence" and then invalidate them by saying nobody bothered to vote in the referendum anyway. That's frigging devious.

They apparently did that in the 1990s, too.

[Neonivek]

And let's just ignore that any time muslims in the West are surveyed, there's way more for making homosexuality illegal than any other Abrahamic religion. I guess that's their sense of "justice".

Ok this is the creepiest thing people bring up whenever they want to argue against immigrants or multiculturalism is that immigrants aren't in favor of homosexuality...

Yet, does this REALLY matter?

i mean it does if you're in favor of lgbt rights.

luckily i'm not, so I don't have to deal with the dilemma.

No I can officially say it doesn't if your in favor of lgbt rights. I don't think people in favor of lgbt rights typically go "Damn Muslims, we need less of them so we don't become a more homophobic society" since well, I am pretty sure MOST gay bashers are not Muslims.

It sounds like a ploy to vilify Muslims unduly and put the blame of homophobia off of ourselves.

[Frumple]

And let's just ignore that any time muslims in the West are surveyed, there's way more for making homosexuality illegal than any other Abrahamic religion. I guess that's their sense of "justice".

I ain't saying christians aren't capable of the same kind of shit (just look at Nigeria), but their recent track record has been a lot better, and I ain't seeing the left oppose these kinds of medieval views the way they oppose them when they come from christians.

Counterpoint in the immediate political news: DUP's (north irish group currently being courted for a majority coalition in the UK) inclinations are apparently entirely in line with that set of laws. It's also, again, very much significantly in line what we've allowed any number of christian denominations (and non-christian groups, and non-religious groups) over the years, and still do on at the least most fronts. Homosexuality beliefs are another thing we just... can't really call them on, at least for straight up disqualification. Even if it's more than the american or christian average we still have tens of millions against it and specific denominations that easily match or surpass 'em, and we're not kicking them out.

Now if we're going to change that folks stateside got good grounds to be closing the door on critters trying to import, but somehow I don't think that's going to fly all that well _{though it'd definitely maintain a left leaning political slant for a good long while, once the whole bout of tyranny and ethnic cleansing cleared upbut seriously let's not do that okay we have our differences but unlike chunks of the right left wing americans pretty universally don't think it's good reason to toss someone in the drink :V}

Left shits on shariah law plenty (and manages to largely avoid supporting the same shit by a different name to boot), it's just christians tend to be a lot closer to home, if you're looking for reason instead of whataboutism. Worth callin' 'em on it if you really feel like, probably, but at least it's near entirely without the hypocrisy.

Point generally to be made is that if we're going to ignore that stuff at home -- and we do, at the absolute least from limited groups and in limit ways -- then it's proper dues to ignore that stuff for folks that want to make this their home, too. Might consider that unfortunate (and I ain't entirely sure I'd 100% disagree with you), but if we're goint to let it slide for us there ain't much room to justify not letting imported us slide, too.

[redwallzyl]

And let's just ignore that any time muslims in the West are surveyed, there's way more for making homosexuality illegal than any other Abrahamic religion. I guess that's their sense of "justice".

Ok this is the creepiest thing people bring up whenever they want to argue against immigrants or multiculturalism is that immigrants aren't in favor of homosexuality...

Yet, does this REALLY matter?

Oppression justified by moral high ground. Textbook oppression justification strategy, as in literally in one of my textbooks, its a really common excuse. They don't hold our nebulous or specific moral values ergo they are inferior and must be, whatever you're trying to justify.

[Neonivek]

And let's just ignore that any time muslims in the West are surveyed, there's way more for making homosexuality illegal than any other Abrahamic religion. I guess that's their sense of "justice".

Ok this is the creepiest thing people bring up whenever they want to argue against immigrants or multiculturalism is that immigrants aren't in favor of homosexuality...

Yet, does this REALLY matter?

Oppression justified by moral high ground. Textbook oppression justification strategy, as in literally in one of my textbooks, its a really common excuse. They don't hold our nebulous or specific moral values ergo they are inferior and must be, whatever you're trying to justify.

Ok since it is sooo tough to understand

DOES MUSLIM HOMOPHOBIA POSSESS ANY THREAT TO HOMOSEXUALS IN THE USA

[smjjames]

I'd say that Christian homophobia poses a bigger threat for homosexuals by sheer numbers alone.

Obviously there would still be a threat from Muslims, but homophobia is still homophobia regardless of the religion that it eminates from (if there is a religious reason being used).

[EnigmaticHat]

i seriously have nothing against muslims; i've only met a couple that were assholes, and that was probably just because they were assholes. but looking at people saying "hey, a large number of immigrants who share a religion that doesn't correspond to 99% of the population's beliefs might be coming to america; that's not good" and calling them "fuckin' nazhee white supremacists" is just dumb.

Islam heavily resembles Christianity.  Fundamentalists and evangelicals have been for my entire life trying to impose beliefs on us that resemble Sharia law.  And I ain't saying Christianity is bad and I ain't saying any action should be taken against Christians whatsoever, because I don't believe that its bad.  I'm just saying, if Hijabs and sabre rattling bother you but banning planned parenthood and treating refuges like state enemies don't bother you, well... you should maybe acceas if you have a double standard.  All I'm saying is, the rest of us have had to put up with a lot to deal with Christians, from my perspective putting up with Muslims is no harder.  In fact its easier because right now they don't have any political influence... of course, only a small section of Christians are extremist.  But then, I know that, and I've always known that.

And if it sounds like I'm being harsh to Christians, well, I went to public school and I know a bunch of other people who have as well.  Some of the shit that extremist Christian groups have done in our schools is fucking terrifying.  I've heard young people be told that they're like a dirty toothbrush if they have sex before marriage, to say nothing of the body and sex policing that most American adults enact on our teenage girls.  And of course there's a strong push to have psuedosciences taught in public school coming largely from the religious far-right and its allies.

I mean seriously, the Republicans just ran a Mormon presidential candidate a few years ago.  The Republicans.  And again, I have no problem with Mormons, and I don't think they should have any less rights than anyone else, and if they were a foreign group I would want them to have full immigration rights.  But I've grown up knowing I would never be able to run for president because I'm not Christian, and here we are running a group that believes in Bigamy, levying what is basically a tax on believers, and posthumous baptisms of real people (which I find highly disrespectful).  So you have this group with at least one practice that is counter to what 99% of Americans believe... and yet neither side of the aisle brought it up much.  Democrats I get since they're already against religious discrimination.  Yet the party that is the source of almost all of the anti-Muslim immigration rhetoric, the party that will never elect anyone who isn't Christian, that party pushes a Mormon through a primary with very little religious fuss.  Funny how that works.  Its almost like they have something in particular against Muslims...

[misko27]

On a tangential (but arguably more relevant to topic) note, did anyone else notice the comment "I didn’t say that, and there’d be nothing wrong if I did say it."? I thought that was hilarious. Donald Trump really needs to put out a tell-all after this called "If I did it, here's how it happened: The Presidential Sequel"

[smjjames]

Isn't it only a few Mormon sects/cults that practice that? The Mormon Church disavowed the practice I believe. Also, Mormons are still Christian, in the same way Protestants, Baptists, Methodists, etc are still Christian.

Also, levying a tax, isn't that what Churches do anyway with donation requests?

Though yes, I get your point about the Republican party's hypocrisy regarding Muslims when they pushed a Mormon candidate.

[misko27]

Also, Mormons are still Christian

Eh, they're so far out of the mainstream it's almost (ALMOST) more fair to call them "Christian-influenced". I mean they aren't exactly a crazy millenarian group led by a man claiming to be the younger brother of Jesus, but they're significantly closer to that then the rest of Christendom.

[Frumple]

On a tangential (but arguably more relevant to topic) note, did anyone else notice the comment "I didn’t say that, and there’d be nothing wrong if I did say it."? I thought that was hilarious. Donald Trump really needs to put out a tell-all after this called "If I did it, here's how it happened: The Presidential Sequel"

Oh aye, I did. I don't think that's nearly the only hilarious thing of that sort that's been coming out in the wake of comey, though.

E: And yeah, a book like that would be great. You could filch the copyright for a charity organization or fifty and sell the book to business courses as an all-in-one "What not to do." reference guide.

[alway]

And let's just ignore that any time muslims in the West are surveyed, there's way more for making homosexuality illegal than any other Abrahamic religion. I guess that's their sense of "justice".

Ok this is the creepiest thing people bring up whenever they want to argue against immigrants or multiculturalism is that immigrants aren't in favor of homosexuality...

Yet, does this REALLY matter?

Oppression justified by moral high ground. Textbook oppression justification strategy, as in literally in one of my textbooks, its a really common excuse. They don't hold our nebulous or specific moral values ergo they are inferior and must be, whatever you're trying to justify.

The other common example being 'protecting women.' A classic argument of racists to the point of cliche is patriarchal malarky about "protecting white women from the violent/abusive/immoral/inferior black men" sometimes also extending to "protecting their women from their men." No surprise, that argument too has made a comeback among racists.

[Neonivek]

OOOOOOH Now I freeken understand Redwallzyl!

I thought he meant "Muslims are oppressing homosexuals because their religion says doing so is good!"

>_< now I am embarassed

[EnigmaticHat]

And let's just ignore that any time muslims in the West are surveyed, there's way more for making homosexuality illegal than any other Abrahamic religion. I guess that's their sense of "justice".

I ain't saying christians aren't capable of the same kind of shit (just look at Nigeria), but their recent track record has been a lot better, and I ain't seeing the left oppose these kinds of medieval views the way they oppose them when they come from christians.

Because Christians live here.  If Muslims ever become a voting block I'll oppose them too.  Hell, the Latino immigrants coming in are statistically in line with religion-in-government ideas I oppose, the only reason they've been welcomed into the democrat's loving arms is because Republicans won't take them.  I'm pretty sure if Republicans could find a way to distance themselves from the hateful and scary anti-immigration rhetoric and start pandering to catholic immigrants, it would 100% reverse their fortunes and put the democrats on the back foot for elections 20+ years in the future.

As for Sharia law in Muslim nations, well, I firmly believe that you don't hate people for their own sake.  "I hate you because you hurt me" can be a consistent view.  "I hate you because you hurt others" can be a consistent view.  "I hate you because you hurt yourself" is a ridiculous standard.  That's why mainstream feminism is no longer against Hijabs, for example, because any anger over that and any change is going to have to come from the people who are actually effected.

Don't get me wrong a little political pressure is a good thing.  But there is no faction in the US that I'm aware of that's saying we shouldn't highlight human rights violations in the Islamic world.  So when you say "the left doesn't oppose those kind of views", all I can hear is you criticizing me for not being hateful.  Because in what sense am I not opposing radical Islam?  I oppose those views here.  And I oppose those views in the sense that I think the governments who enact them should be pressured to stop.  As would most Americans, its just that some want reasoned political action and others would prefer invasions and blanket condemnations of an entire religion.  The political divide isn't between pro-Muslim and anti-Muslim, and it never has been.  The right sees itself as equal and opposite to the left, so since they're anti-muslim surely the other side is pro-muslim.  No, the left just doesn't have an opinion on that, they aren't pro or anti any religion.  At least not the leftists that agree with me which I think is a majority.

Spoiler: historical semi-digression (click to show/hide)

Furthermore, Sharia law was a positive force when it was first codified and it still exists for strong historical reasons.  Its kinda dickish to say "why haven't you phased out your repressive religious laws" when we were literally the colonial caretaker for the region half a century back, and we still kinda are in the neocolonial sense.  There actually is a solid pushback against Sharia Law in the Muslim world its just only taking a foothold in a few places.  Which, again, is happening for a reason.  When exactly did the Islamic world have an opportunity to enact strong social change since 1918?  We were doing a lot of sordid shit in 1918 but we got to move on.  You can see the same thing in other postcolonial nations.  They're going through the same changes the colonial masters did, just somewhere between 30-150 years behind, depending on the overall education level and stability within the region.  Look at for example India and you'll see what I mean.  You can look at how, for example, Indian immigrants often treat entry level workers like crap because they're used to doing so in their own nation, and you can judge India as a nation for that.  But the caste system is technically illegal in India and there's an ongoing dialogue over whether the caste system should be kept or abandoned. [removed word junk at the end here]

Edited out the top of your quote because I semi-agree with your statement.  I would have some quibbles in that its kind of complicated which parts of the Islamic world follow Sharia law and to what extent, but it is a good chunk of the Middle East and it does cause genuine human harm.