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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4283330 times)

alway

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6735 on: May 24, 2017, 08:02:31 pm »

I don't understand people for population control. There is plenty of resources for everybody, but corrupt people in power are usually the reason why it isn't given to those people.
I think you're underestimating just how many people 7 million is. It's true that there's inequality which leads to wealthy regions like Europe and the Americas using vastly disproportionate resources, but that doesn't change the fact that we've got a massive amount of people. The only reason we're even able to maintain current populations levels this long is because of techniques of the green revolution that are proving to be less sustainable than originally advertised. That's not to say nothing good came out there, but monocultures screw up the soil and there's only so much you can ramp up fertilization before it becomes less feasible, meanwhile the resultant eutrophication is destroying waterways that are already subject to massive overfishing, meanwhile coastline development is destroying forage fish spawning grounds, meaning that even if all oceanic fishing stopped right now, populations still couldn't return to their original levels. I mean, this is just food, to say nothing of the decadence of petroleum products, the loss of biodiversity, and the slow but inexhorable march of global warming. There are enough resources right at this specific instant in time, true, but we can't freeze time right now. Time is proceeding forward, and will continue to do so regardless of the actions of "people in power".
This isn't really correct though, and none of it has to do with population regardless. Lack of sustainability is due to capitalism focusing on tiny short term gains at massive long term expense, and its traditional denial of available-but-untapped resources having value.
So, you're saying that if the world was converted to a planned economy that doesn't have flaws for people to exploit, the earth would have more resources? I mean, I agree that people focus on shortsighted profit, but going "it's capitalism's fault!" is pretty disingenuous.

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With proper incentives and techniques like vertical farming, Earth could probably support 50 billion humans or more. It would be incredibly energy intensive, but entirely doable by human civilization. If we globally decided that sustainably supporting as many humans as possible was what we wanted to attain, and put resources towards accordingly, we could support a very much larger population than even the most extreme forecasts for peak human population numbers.
I'd like to see your numbers on that. I'm having a hard time imagining a power source that's both fully sustainable and also able to produce on the scale you suggest.
Capitalism is a winner-take-all system. If you have a product that's slightly more expensive, but which is better in the long run, capitalism will drive it out of business completely. So yeah, it absolutely destroys attempts to do things that aren't shitty for everyone in the long run. If you look at an industrial process creating heavy metal contamination everywhere it's done, you can't simply claim 'this product can not be made sustainably.' There may well be a variation on the process that pollutes nothing but costs another 0.25% of profits, but capitalism has merely 'optimized' it out of the system. This is why capitalism has historically been so incredibly destructive, and until people got fed up enough to implement regulations preventing some of its most obvious and immediate excesses, it polluted vast swaths of land to the point where cleanup efforts continue decades later. Capitalism has not and will never clean up after itself or be an effective steward of the environment, a fact which has been shown time and again. That businesses in a capitalist society aren't sustainable is about as surprising as looking in the mirror and finding your skin is not purple; there's no reason to think they would be.

As for efficiency in food production: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S.full
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At present, the US livestock population consumes more than 7 times as much grain as is consumed directly by the entire American population (11). The amount of grains fed to US livestock is sufficient to feed about 840 million people who follow a plant-based diet (7).
Even just by *reducing* production (of meat), you could feed significantly larger populations. On top of that, there's the increase in yields that's been going on for decades: https://ourworldindata.org/yields/
So there's still plenty of space to support several times the current population into the future even if we assume no increase in cropland and no move towards proposals as extreme as vertical farming. If you see some reason as to why agriculture would suddenly collapse despite an increase in agricultural technologies, automation, and environmental monitoring that isn't merely a side-effect of capitalist incentives to destroy for profit, I'm curious what it is. Of those you mentioned, monocultures can be eliminated by automation technologies capable of handling multiple types of plants/crops, which is plenty possible with today's computer vision tech if the need for it were made clear. Eutrophication is a symptom of fertilizer/chemical excess, which can be monitored and prevented if there's reason to do so. Overfishing, coastline development, again, that's capitalism failing to value an unexploited resource. Global warming is a long term cost ignored for short term profit; again, capitalism. All of these things would be just as big a problem with a smaller population; they would simply take longer. The underlying incentives causing them would still be there.


Edit: And in entirely unrelated news, don't ask Republicans questions, they might attack you. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/24/greg-gianforte-bodyslams-reporter-ben-jacobs-montana
Republican congressional candidate bodyslams a reporter for the guardian to the ground after he asks about the latest CBO score for the Republican healthcare disaster.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 08:23:01 pm by alway »
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6736 on: May 24, 2017, 08:32:06 pm »

I don't know that depression incidence is a good metric for quality of life.  I wouldn't be surprised if depression incidence in, say, Afghanistan were biased by the fact that it goes unreported.  Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if depression in developing nations went unreported because all the depressed people are dead.  Plus for all we know clinical depression is activated by something specific that's more present in the developed world.
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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6737 on: May 25, 2017, 12:46:31 am »

In other news, the Pope teased Milania about Trump being an animated mass of lard and cheetoh crumbs under a wig.

Best.Pope.Ever.
Lolwut source?
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/24/trump-meets-with-pope-francis-238752 just kinda mentions him asking if she feeds him a food that I just forgot the name of but searching "pope francis fat trump" will bring up a bunch of hits if you haven't seen it yet.


Let's just say they are the kind of thing that Internet Conspiracy Theories (tm) are made of.

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/a5q2k/the_club_of_romes_world_government_climatechange/

OR-- How I learned not to believe everything I read on the internet. :P
I do feel the need to point out that I first read about the club of rome folks back when the IPCC was on the verge of releasing their first assessment report, so at the time the our tablets were made out of smashed up trees, had a bunch of flimsy feeling screens, and they were all stuck on a single displayed state per screen, but they were front AND back, bet your iGadget doesn't have that feature!

Oh, and absolutely no interactivity! Forget swiping or tapping or even pressing a hardware button, you want to follow that link to page 137, you had to actually flip back to that page, risking papercuts or worse, being buried in advertising postcard inserts!

[T]he current global trend is towards far more desertification, not less.
This has been annoying the shit out of me for actual decades now.

If deserts are expanding then the planet is getting cooler.
If deserts are shrinking then the planet is getting warmer.
You can't just treat scary ecological effects like a buffet, these portions are a set, if you want another roll (shrinking deserts) you gotta take a serving of peas (warmer climate), and if you want some asparagus (expanding deserts) for some reason then you gotta take... fuck I dunno, fucking brussel sprouts (cooler climate) with it.

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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6738 on: May 25, 2017, 02:10:01 am »

Desertification is a measure of rainfall, not of temperature. And it is a local measure, not a global one.

A change in the global average temperature has a lot of different immediate effects, and those effects also have effects. Rainfall changes are a good example. Where it is already dry, a temperature increase causes less precipitation. Where it is already wet (such as oceans[citation needed]), a temperature increase also increases evaporation, which in turn can cause more rainfall downwind.

That does not mean these forces are balanced, by any means. On the contrary, these forces can cause more flooding and more droughts at the same time. Simple, one-directional results are for politicians.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6740 on: May 25, 2017, 04:23:19 am »

UK police have decided to no longer share information about the Manchester attacks with the 'leaking' US intelligence services. British outraged after US intelligence service leaked classified pictures (one with what looks to be the bomb's detonator) to NYT.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40040210

EDIT: I wonder if this means that the UK police will also stop sharing information with their own British intelligence services, because they would still pass on the info to their US colleagues, or that this will be followed by the UK intelligence services joining in on the boycot.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 04:29:40 am by martinuzz »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6741 on: May 25, 2017, 04:27:31 am »

UK police have decided to no longer share information about the Manchester attacks with the 'leaking' US intelligence services. British outraged after US intelligence service leaked classified pictures to NYT.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40040210

Haven't we done that before with other terror attacks? I doubt that this is the very first time we've done that, leak stuff the UK gives us. They're just more annoyed than usual because of Trump.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 04:29:45 am by smjjames »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6742 on: May 25, 2017, 04:41:51 am »

Well, trump, the severity of the damage, the general state of the world and the UK in particular, and so on. To whatever extent it happened in the past, the UK is probably more prickly about it today and for this specific incident regardless of who's at the head of the country. Not that having someone who was worth a single shit wouldn't have helped avoid aggravating that, heh.

Though repeated incidents always makes things unusual, for what that's worth. People don't exactly tend to get less annoyed with someone that keeps inflicting the same bad behavior on 'em.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6743 on: May 25, 2017, 07:07:25 am »

UK police have decided to no longer share information about the Manchester attacks with the 'leaking' US intelligence services. British outraged after US intelligence service leaked classified pictures to NYT.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40040210

Haven't we done that before with other terror attacks? I doubt that this is the very first time we've done that, leak stuff the UK gives us. They're just more annoyed than usual because of Trump.

The article does in fact say this has happened before, that UK and US just handle their journalists differently.

Well, trump, the severity of the damage, the general state of the world and the UK in particular, and so on. To whatever extent it happened in the past, the UK is probably more prickly about it today and for this specific incident regardless of who's at the head of the country. Not that having someone who was worth a single shit wouldn't have helped avoid aggravating that, heh.

Though repeated incidents always makes things unusual, for what that's worth. People don't exactly tend to get less annoyed with someone that keeps inflicting the same bad behavior on 'em.

Repeated incidents make things more common. Those are the meaning of the words common and unusual. Happens more often or happens less often. People may still be angry about repeated events. It may even push them to a breaking point after a while, but you can also get used to the way someone works. Deal with their annoyances and just accept them for who they are.

There used to be acceptance, but since everyone is shitting all over Trump these days it's a good opportunity to air grievances. Afterwards we can all circle around the aluminum/aluminium pole and proceed with the feats of strength.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6744 on: May 25, 2017, 07:38:19 am »

(I think the meaning was "it is unusual to be repeated", as in that uncommon slips happen not infrequently. But, once the issue has been acknowledged, it is rare that such slips become common by repetition. I think.)
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inteuniso

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6745 on: May 25, 2017, 09:15:11 am »

Aluminum is a misspelling. American english just leaves the second e silent. I am infuriated about the misspellings everywhere in the U.S. we can have our accent and proper grammar you dullards.
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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6746 on: May 25, 2017, 10:05:18 am »

UK police have decided to no longer share information about the Manchester attacks with the 'leaking' US intelligence services. British outraged after US intelligence service leaked classified pictures to NYT.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40040210
Haven't we done that before with other terror attacks? I doubt that this is the very first time we've done that, leak stuff the UK gives us. They're just more annoyed than usual because of Trump.
They're annoyed because after telling the Americans to stop leaking sensitive information whilst we're dealing with the victims and the larger network which is still at large, it took hours for the Americans to start leaking information again

"Lads please stop leaking info"
"Sure thing"
*hours later*
"FFS you did it again"

Currently UK gov believes it wasn't Trump that leaked it, nor whitehouse officials, but US police officers

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6747 on: May 25, 2017, 10:08:19 am »

Not that I believe cops are trustworthy for...well, anything, but how would they have gotten information like that? The intelligence services don't just tell them everything.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6748 on: May 25, 2017, 10:15:53 am »

Hey at least the Russians are plenty friendly when you want to leak stuff to them, so it's ok. One friend lost, another gained.

i'll have stab in the dark and say that the administration and the woefully understaffed State Department miiiiight have some connection to their being leaks. Probably some Russians hiding in the unihabited part of State Dept and surreptitiously photographing documents that Tillerman left lying around, and spreading those to the media to create a US / UK rift.

With Brexit splitting up the EU, Trump's rise and being pals with UK and snubbing NATO, and now a rift between US and UK, Putin's probably rubbing his hands, "Just According to Keikaku".
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 10:21:00 am by Reelya »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump fires FBI Dir. Comey, sheneinighans abound
« Reply #6749 on: May 25, 2017, 10:17:34 am »

(I think the meaning was "it is unusual to be repeated", as in that uncommon slips happen not infrequently. But, once the issue has been acknowledged, it is rare that such slips become common by repetition. I think.)
The meaning was relative to smj's usage, actually. It was an intentional misuse, highlighting that previous responses are not a good measure for future ones. Every new test of patience is another disruption of the status quo, not a normalization of bad behavior. There was never really acceptance or something of the sort, just a pool of tolerance that had a limit, each repetition draining it further or stressing its ability to refill.

Trump's influence is probably less being an acceptable target, per se, and more being so goddamn incompetent he's incapable of soothing feathers directly or by proxy. His own inclination towards insecurity and ongoing destruction of american diplomatic capability probably doesn't particularly help on the subject, either.
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