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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4149949 times)

alway

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On the topic of cities, a lot of that is shaped by how and for whom cities are created -- most of which I'm not sure needs to be the way you describe them, LW. Not knowing neighbors, for example, is probably less a result of numbers, and more a result of churn, range, and lack of public spaces. Some things are the result of late capitalism, which demands people move frequently or end up significantly worse off, and which seems to devour every inch of public space for private use. Some is the result of the US's car culture, which both destroys hyper-local block scale relationships and increases the range of people you meet; mcmansion suburb hell is a good example of this, where everyone you know is a 15 minute drive away, and you let down the drawbridge only long enough for your car to enter or exit. Car infrastructure also cuts down the middle of areas, slicing them up into disparate parts almost inaccessible by anything but cars. Commutes by car have also been found to be essentially the worst part of peoples' day; with some study I recall suggesting that removing a 1 hour commute from your day was the happiness equivalent of falling in love.

Plans like this: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/may/17/superblocks-rescue-barcelona-spain-plan-give-streets-back-residents
and similar could result in cities which are much more livable. A lot of it comes down to urban planning with the express goal of actually making cities better for residents, something which has been woefully inadequate in the US for decades.

Walking cities are something which have seen something of a resurgence of late, being particularly popular among the millennial generation, so I am rather hopeful about the future direction things could take there. This plz, is all I'm sayin.
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sluissa

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I don't mind the idea of walking cities, but I would NEVER want to live in one and simply making them walking doesn't remove the biggest annoyance for people like me, which is typically the parking situation. Granted, self driving cars MAY somewhere down the line fix this. You wouldn't HAVE to park your car. Pull up to your destination, get out, and your car takes itself somewhere to wait and comes back when you're ready for it. Maybe even make a few bucks while you're doing your thing by offering itself as an automated uber.

I love driving though. I don't even really mind commuting so much except that it makes me get up earlier. The commute is usually the easiest part of a work day for me. I don't think I'd feel the same way if I had to walk or take public transport. I've spent time without private transport and it's no fun at all.
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wierd

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When I say that nationalism is like a mental illness, I mean it in the prism of "WE IS THE BESTEST COUNTRY!!", a-la North Korea. (Though they are a radical extreme-- "Best Korea" and all that.)

The radical nationalist population in the US would dearly *LOVE* to have that kind of dangerous nationalism HERE as well.
These types of views favor a dogmatic position (WE ARE THE BEST! NO QUESTION!!), that is contrary to objective reality (Hey, our prison system is out of fucking control, we have a dysfunctional education system, we imprison people for petty crimes for purely political reasons, and we shit on the rest of the world both politically and economically. We have severe problems with social equality, we have an ever increasing wealth gap that is threatening everything about american culture-- and really, you think this is somehow THE BEST? WTF!!!!)

In addition, it also leads to things that are dangerous to mankind in general, especially in the modern world.  Things like my own country denouncing global climate change, and pointing the finger at China, going "But they are so much dirtier than us!!! Nevermind that we are financially capable, just unwilling, to fix our shit!"-- or NK's nuclear dildo testing.

It has so many terrible things going for it, I just can't help but decry it.
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misko27

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Well, I think the point that redwallyzl wanted to make has been successfully made.

Although it is at times like this that one misses mainiac. Imagine him, here, angrily typing away at how you are all a bunch of filthy commies. I'm kidding of course, but it was useful for the forum to have another voice. Pity his voice was too angry, too bitter. St. Mainiac, gone to a better(?) place.
When I say that nationalism is like a mental illness, I mean it in the prism of "WE IS THE BESTEST COUNTRY!!", a-la North Korea. (Though they are a radical extreme-- "Best Korea" and all that.)

The radical nationalist population in the US would dearly *LOVE* to have that kind of dangerous nationalism HERE as well.
These types of views favor a dogmatic position (WE ARE THE BEST! NO QUESTION!!), that is contrary to objective reality (Hey, our prison system is out of fucking control, we have a dysfunctional education system, we imprison people for petty crimes for purely political reasons, and we shit on the rest of the world both politically and economically. We have severe problems with social equality, we have an ever increasing wealth gap that is threatening everything about american culture-- and really, you think this is somehow THE BEST? WTF!!!!)

In addition, it also leads to things that are dangerous to mankind in general, especially in the modern world.  Things like my own country denouncing global climate change, and pointing the finger at China, going "But they are so much dirtier than us!!! Nevermind that we are financially capable, just unwilling, to fix our shit!"-- or NK's nuclear dildo testing.

It has so many terrible things going for it, I just can't help but decry it.
Have you ever considered maybe you feel like this because you just don't love America enough? Think about it.

On the topic of walking cities, as the only person in this forum who lives in something approaching one, I feel the right to talk about it as if I was an expert, since living in one and knowing everything about it are essentially the same thing (as everyone who discusses politics no doubt is aware).
On the topic of cities, a lot of that is shaped by how and for whom cities are created -- most of which I'm not sure needs to be the way you describe them, LW. Not knowing neighbors, for example, is probably less a result of numbers, and more a result of churn, range, and lack of public spaces. Some things are the result of late capitalism, which demands people move frequently or end up significantly worse off, and which seems to devour every inch of public space for private use. Some is the result of the US's car culture, which both destroys hyper-local block scale relationships and increases the range of people you meet; mcmansion suburb hell is a good example of this, where everyone you know is a 15 minute drive away, and you let down the drawbridge only long enough for your car to enter or exit. Car infrastructure also cuts down the middle of areas, slicing them up into disparate parts almost inaccessible by anything but cars. Commutes by car have also been found to be essentially the worst part of peoples' day; with some study I recall suggesting that removing a 1 hour commute from your day was the happiness equivalent of falling in love.
Well I have a lot of strong opinions about all of this, but instead of beating you into the ground with them I'll instead ask: how does New York City play into this? Since we are, after all, the beating heart of capitalism; location of the chief temple to Mammon, and we have a unique approach to both cars, roads, public spaces, and soul-rending commutes.

On the other hand, we don't contribute nearly as much carbon, as it's very important to us that our descendants toil in the same endless, tourist-hating drudgery that we do.
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EnigmaticHat

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NYC is one of the best places in the US to not have a car... and one of the worst places in the US to own one.  Public transit in the US is rare and where you do have tangible public transit (AKA not buses) property values skyrocket.  NYC is an example of this, although that's hardly the only reason NYC is so expensive.

In regards to social alienation and cities, I really do believe that US society is coming apart at the seams for reasons that are largely related to time and money.  Not only are stay at home parents less economically feasible every day, but few adults get by on less than 40 hours a week of work.  You either work multiple jobs or you get (possibly unpaid and probably unavoidable) overtime on your fulltime job.  The parents are all working 24/7 and due to American cultural norms the extended family often plays a minor or nonexistant role in raising kids.  The community (including not just adults but a child's peers) has almost no role raising kids due to helicopter parents/stranger danger, basically this culture of you're a bad parent if you ever let your kid out of your sight.  Meanwhile because of the changes to school, kids have less and less free time from an early age.  They do homework instead of play and when they aren't doing either of those things their parents will often push them off into aftercare or something else to occupy them.  When I was growing up I knew people who's parents forced them to watch TV for hours of time in the day.  The population as a whole is stretched thin and burnt out.  And its like... you're busy, everyone else is busy, and no one can afford to own homes anymore so every residential building on your block is an apartment building with a locked front door.  How are you supposed to meet people?  So the only real place you *can* meet people anymore is work and school.  But since the districts for the different school levels are different and there are 3 distinct levels of US public school (elementary > middle > high) there's a chance you'll be separated from your friends twice even if you don't move.  In addition you often can't stay in one place, since many people get kicked out by their landlords or have the rent increased, and some people have to move for work.  Then most jobs have a high turnover rate nowadays... anyway, the best way to meet people in the US is to live in a community so small that even if you switch jobs or schools you'll still see the same faces.

I will actually say that almost literally everyone I know is either mentally ill or has that edge case where maybe its mental illness maybe its just unhealthiness (for example if you have depression symptoms it might not literally be clinical depression but you still aren't healthy).  My college friends (and their friends) are all mentally ill/severely anxious, my high school friends that would never have confided any weakness back then have since grown up and I've learned that they as well have mental illness, two of my ~40 year old coworkers have confided they're taking meds (one for schizophrenia!).  I can think of literally one person my age who tells me personal things and isn't mentally ill, but she's heavily supporting her depressed best friend who lives with her.  Re: LW's post, I have ADHD and I moved to a city because if I have to drive a car I will literally kill someone.  By accident.  In fact I was recently in a car crash in which I was at fault and getting car insurance again would cost a fortune.  I cannot afford to live anywhere except a walking city.  Not sure if that's a common situation tho, might just be me.

Edit: This says it pretty well.  Its a long read, but if you're confused by me saying everyone I know is mentally ill it elaborates quite nicely.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 02:14:08 am by EnigmaticHat »
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PTTG??

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For good or for ill, I think that will be resolved by (and was caused by) the automation crisis. In a few decades, something will have to change to address it.

It's not at all clear which side week win.
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misko27

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NYC is one of the best places in the US to not have a car... and one of the worst places in the US to own one.
This is one of the times those hillbillies from the outer boroughs would say something like "Oh, well I see when you say 'the city', you mean MANHATTAN". But they wouldn't be totally wrong, if I lived in Queens I'd want a car. And Staten Island too, but we don't talk about Staten Island; So far from God, so near New Jersey.

Also on mental illness, I'd like to raise the objection that you don't have accurate comparisons. It's not like we can go back in time and do population surveys, and since the DSM is recent and changing, we've got no sort of useful statistical analysis on this whatsover. ADHD cases are rising too; does that reflect a social change? An environmental change? A cultural change? Or simply a diagnostic change? These are all legitimate answers. I mean sure, you may know a lot of messed up people; so do I, but my family was already a font of broken dreams as it stands. My father is also a sociopath/narcissist/vampire-wearing-human-skin, would I assume that those are common simply because I experienced it?

There does come a risk in overrepresenting one's own life. I met someone recently who had been sexually abused by multiple different individuals over their lifetime; and this blew my mind, as despite literally everything else wrong, I'd never had any experience of that at all. Not even second-hand knowledge, or even third hand knowledge. And yet, this individual who experienced things I couldn't imagine was equally dumbfounded by my account of my father and had just never heard of someone as thoroughly reprehensible as he was; and of course to me this was mind-boggling.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 03:32:36 am by misko27 »
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EnigmaticHat

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We actually can know the differences between my friends and boomers the back in the day; its in the article I linked.  Colleges are reporting that use of their mental health resources has vastly increased to the point where its becoming a problem for them.  And its not just diagnosing cases that would have been ignored before; the suicide rate has tripled among college students.

As for the differences right now, best source I could find was the CDC statistics on "any mental illness" for 2015:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Bear in mind that the standard for millennial is about early 1980s birth year, so the oldest millennial by most definitions is 47 now.  Which means according to the CDC being a millennial makes you ~35% more likely to be mentally ill than the general population.
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ChairmanPoo

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Quote
Bear in mind that the standard for millennial is about early 1980s birth year, so the oldest millennial by most definitions is 47 now.  Which means according to the CDC being a millennial makes you ~35% more likely to be mentally ill than the general population.

Eeh, no
-Early 1980 births are not 'millennials' per se (though tbh I personally see myself -1984- more reflected in them as at home we were early adopters of IT, but its certainly not the standard. ) IIRC the 80s are 'generation Y'

-Someome born in 1980 would be 37, not 47
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wierd

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Indeed. I am generation Y. Kids born in the 90s are millennials.

80s kids remember the time before the internet-- the last generation to have that distinction. I remember playing OUTSIDE as a kid.

I remember when computers were green screened monsters that could barely beep, and which consumed power like nobody's business. I remember programming on the rom bios basic interpreter.

Kids today do not understand the technology they use, they take it for granted as something that has always existed, and do not treat it with the respect it really deserves, which is why they use things like facebook and twitter, and share things about themselves they should NEVER reveal.

But that's it for my "get off my lawn" grandpa impersonation.
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Dorsidwarf

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Wait a minut

If you're counting "everyone below 40 " as this sort of clique and everyone above that as the general population, that's a bit like saying "women are more likely to X, compared to the general population"

Like, I'm pretty sure that <40 years old is the majority of population
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ChairmanPoo

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Depends on the country. In most of the Western World  ~40 is actually the median national age. Therefore it's even upwards and downwards
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Antioch

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Indeed. I am generation Y. Kids born in the 90s are millennials.

80s kids remember the time before the internet-- the last generation to have that distinction. I remember playing OUTSIDE as a kid.

I remember when computers were green screened monsters that could barely beep, and which consumed power like nobody's business. I remember programming on the rom bios basic interpreter.

Kids today do not understand the technology they use, they take it for granted as something that has always existed, and do not treat it with the respect it really deserves, which is why they use things like facebook and twitter, and share things about themselves they should NEVER reveal.

But that's it for my "get off my lawn" grandpa impersonation.

I am born in 1991 and I remember a time before internet and mobile phones.

Well internet was there, but basically nobody used it and your mom would get mad at you because she couldn't use the phone. It wasn't a part of life like it is today at all.

And mobile phones were for the extremely decadent rich people.

My year of birth is basically right on the dividing line between these generations.
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ChairmanPoo

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 I'm from 84 and I had computers, mobile phones, and internet for most of my childhood. I had consoles and a rudimentary computer from the age of 4. I got my first full-fledged PC at nine, and the first cellphone I had that I can remember was from 1996 (and before that my father did have mobile phones... I distinctly recall him having one of those huge-brick-phones for the car, in the late eighties).

(this is a long winded way of saying that I think this whole Generation whatever thing is a bit bullshitty. Things are not as clear-cut as they're being sold.
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wierd

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'82 here.  Did not get an actual computer until around age 12. Was a 486sx with 4mb of ram, ran win3.1, NO INTERNET.

We did have "game consoles" (if you consider atari 2600 a game console... hehehe), but you can only play pong and space invaders so long before your eyes bleed. Outdoors was much more fun anyway.  The things we got to do as kids would put both children and parents in prison these days. (Things like setting up dirt ramps and jumping them on bicycles without helmets, pads, or adult supervision-- or going sledding on a toboggan after literally icing up the slope with buckets of water the night before.

 
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