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[Greiger]

I need to send this to the nuke calculator site.  Next april fools they can replace their calculator with a simulation of dropping a school that costs the same amount as one of those nukes.  Including fallout from loose children looting the nearest candy and toy stores.

I imagine the devastation would be similar to the nukes themselves.

[Shazbot]

Not quite what I or I assume anyone means when we say "x y dollars worth of military hardware" as it is generally talking about costs spent or in some cases potential sale value, like if someone was flying an F-16 we were selling and crashed it, there's a dollar value you can quantify there. Personally I think it's rather silly using that measure anyways, how many kg of boom was it?

The military doesn't buy this way. For a new system with an RnD budget, there's a per-unit flyaway cost that is basically the development cost divided by the number of units ordered total minus the cost to make an individual airframe, hence, buying more F-35's makes each one a little cheaper because that RnD price tag gets spread over more airframes.

After the initial production run we get into "unit replacement costs", which is a funny accounting term. The cost to replace a missile may be much higher than the cost to buy the initial lot of missiles, since Raytheon doesn't leave everyone standing around at the factory to make one-off missiles. $90 million in unit-replacement-costs for 60 Tomahawk missiles makes enough sense, however, nobody's actually paying $1.5 million a missile.

A million dollars to precisely position 1,000 pounds of munition ( $1,000/lb ) with no risk to pilot lives is excellent, considering one Reaper drone is $20 million and it may-or-may-not get shot down and may-or-may-not ruin our ability to operate drones in Syrian airspace if we use this kind of back-stabby delivery system.

And, as said before, we've got Tomahawks and they sit on these boats. It costs money to maintain them through calibrations and testing and sending them back to depots for refurbishing. Firing them saves money next year.

Better $90 million in missiles now than sitting on your hands whinging and whining that other people drew your "red line" for you even though you declared it yourself on national television and you weren't obligated to do anything after you punted to Congress and they gawked at you wondering where your balls were being kept, then shuffled 400,000 corpses under the rug until you were out of office to go windsurfing in Tahiti.

[Starver]

May or may not be "US Politics" (and this definitely isn't) but it's US Something Or Other, and thus this might be worth a few moments distraction.

Well,

"After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate," the airline added.

..."you must volunteer, or else... "?

If it's not a storm in a coffee cup, it sounds very strange.

[sluissa]

May or may not be "US Politics" (and this definitely isn't) but it's US Something Or Other, and thus this might be worth a few moments distraction.

Well,

"After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate," the airline added.

..."you must volunteer, or else... "?

If it's not a storm in a coffee cup, it sounds very strange.

Been fighting this one all morning.

Company needed to move 4 employees. (Because they needed those employees for flights elsewhere, without which a flight with 100+ people wouldn't have taken off and been an even bigger loss than 4 seats compensated for) They asked for volunteers to give up their seats with significant compensation. $800 was a number thrown around as offered but they probably would have climbed higher than that. Nobody volunteered. They decided to pick 4 "random" people. How random this was is debatable, but they needed those seats, so they picked 4 people. One of them claimed to be a doctor and refused because he has patients waiting. There is an argument here if there ARE actually patients waiting on him in a life threatening condition that only he can take care of. Security was rightly called to escort an uncooperative passenger off of their plane. Security got a bit rough with the passenger.

In the end, this flight was delayed by 2 hours causing problems for 100+ people. Another flight was likely delayed by 2+ hours causing issues for those 100+ people. Each of those has a chance of needing a connecting ticket rebooked which might end up bumping people off further down the line. All because one man threw a temper tantrum on the plane.

Security did go too far. And there is the possibility of the man being a doctor needed at his destination is a valid claim to keep him on the plane, but otherwise this really was one man ruining the days of hundreds of other people.

Reading further into that BBC article though it seems as if the doctor didn't need to be at the hospital till the next day. Definitely not a life threatening emergency. The employees didn't need to be at work until the next day either, but because of limits on airline employees and how long they can fly in a given work day and how much rest time they need between work days, it could have been an issue if they weren't on that flight.

United got themselves some bad PR, for sure. But I don't blame them one bit.  Security could have handled it better, but dude shouldn't have refused to leave the plane when asked either.

[Frumple]

Could have been avoided by having a few empty seats in case of situations like that, too, for what that's worth. Kinda' seems like the comments regarding the flight being over booked is 'cause of something like that. Can't recall if I remember a bit of flex seating (or whatever it'd be called) being a normal practice or not, now that I think about it...

Better $90 million in missiles now than sitting on your hands whinging and whining that other people drew your "red line" for you even though you declared it yourself on national television and you weren't obligated to do anything after you punted to Congress and they gawked at you wondering where your balls were being kept, then shuffled 400,000 corpses under the rug until you were out of office to go windsurfing in Tahiti.

Yeah, I hear ya' man. Congress can take the time to do something else and 90 million in missiles is a lot fancier place to shuffle a half million corpses under than some rug, and you get to wave your explosive dick around and claim mission accomplished. Same results, but different people think it's okay to clap themselves on the back and think something got done, and that's got to count for something. Votes, approval ratings, more corpses to hide, who knows.

Anyone happen to be paying enough attention to keep a check on what the post-strike displays of air power managed to blow up? Hear assad and russia thought it was a good excuse to push for extra air strikes for at least a day or so, but didn't really pay attention to the details.

[Dunamisdeos]

Anyone happen to be paying enough attention to keep a check on what the post-strike displays of air power managed to blow up? Hear assad and russia thought it was a good excuse to push for extra air strikes for at least a day or so, but didn't really pay attention to the details.

I've seen a lot of reports that appear unconfirmed at this time, including that the same place that was hit by the chemical weapons was bombed afterwards.

Additionally a Syrian spokesman apparently came out and stated that multiple runways and bunkers were hit. CBS news states that the Sharyat airfield was chosen because it was believed to be the one that launched the chemical weapons strike, and may even have been where the weapons were stored. They also mention that the intent is that high heat can vaporize the gas, rendering it inert. This was a tactic used during the Bush administration.

Second paragraph drawn from CNN/CBS news running updates.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Can confirm that airlines are scumbags, they once "forgot" to call an entire section of a plane I was booked for in order to hand it over to another pilot and his kids. And then claimed it never happened, standing me for seven hours regardless. Should have demanded that x4 refund, had I known about it at the time. Fuck you Delta, I will never forget.

Honestly, less surprised at the cops. Brutalizing people is their day-to-day, this is just blowing up because it happened to a finely dressed guy in a respected profession and was recorded. Shame the people on that plane didn't hop up and give them a taste of their own bullshit, they'd have gotten mobbed for sure.

[Draignean]

They also mention that the intent is that high heat can vaporize the gas, rendering it inert. This was a tactic used during the Bush administration.

high heat can vaporize the gas, rendering it inert.

vaporize the gas

There is something very Star-Trek about this explanation. I understand what their intent is, that the high heat will render the gas inert, but seriously, CNN/CBS could have used slightly different phrasing.

[Starver]

Security could have handled it better, but dude shouldn't have refused to leave the plane when asked either.

Why him? If (as they seem to do, the way airlines gamble to avoid flying empty and unpaying seats at any timr) they have excess people and are willing to compensate at ever higher prices, how is "You're volunteering. Get off this flight!" in any way a sensible escalation?

Ignore the actions of Security (for now...  as I'm going to assume they got a message about a 'difficult' passenger, as sometimes happens assumed a drunken and rowdy one who was making threats of violence and geared up their response accordingly), there was clearly something else that stopped any other solution¹ happening and them ending up scribbling over the whole definition of "volunteer"...

There's doubtless more to the story, and probably not what any of us are thinking.

And then the guy escapes his Security escort and gets back into the plane cabin, if I read it correctly...  That'd be worrying if it were the only worrying thing in the whole debacle, but it isn't.


¹ Ask for (say) five more people willing to play Rock-Paper-Scissors in a tournament fashion, the least successful player to get the (compensated!) push off of the flight, the winner to get their food and drink free, just as an incentive to get players to commit to this 'high stakes'² gambit.  Wouldn't have cost them much more to do (less than adding a hundred dollars to the compensation offer),and it'd have been a fun conversation starter for all involved, for at least a couple of months of dining with friends and relatives and random joes who just happened to be in the same bar on any given night

² Or, for the winner, 'high steaks'! Unless he chose to have the vegetable lasagne... 

[sluissa]

Could have been avoided by having a few empty seats in case of situations like that, too, for what that's worth. Kinda' seems like the comments regarding the flight being over booked is 'cause of something like that. Can't recall if I remember a bit of flex seating (or whatever it'd be called) being a normal practice or not, now that I think about it...

Might have been the case a while back, but I haven't been on a flight in the last 3 years that wasn't completely full. Airlines are getting creative about putting a butt in every seat. They will move prices around, sell at below cost (because even a below cost ticket is still making more than an empty seat). They'll cancel half full flights and consolidate with other half full flights. Code share means they can do this even amongst other airlines.

10 years ago I flew on plenty of half full planes. 5 years ago it was a non-insubstantial chance I might be able to plan it right to have an empty seat next to me. Now it's always crammed in tighter than sardines.

It's the cost of keeping airline prices as low as they are.

this is just blowing up because it happened to a finely dressed guy in a respected profession and was recorded.

Dude was in sweatpants and a t-shirt like half the other discount airline bums flying these days.

There is something very Star-Trek about this explanation. I understand what their intent is, that the high heat will render the gas inert, but seriously, CNN/CBS could have used slightly different phrasing.

It's a dumb explanation, but a quick wikipedia browse (that might have landed me on some kind of watch list) suggests that dispersal of sarin gas is done with a two part liquid. One is the primary chemical with a long name and basically no other use, usually considered the thing we need to worry about and the other is usually hydrogen peroxide(EDIT: I was apparently mistaken here, it's isopropyl alcohol must have just stuck in my mind as "that stuff in the cabinet what I pour on my cuts." My mistake, sorry.). A fairly common chemical with a wide range of uses. These are kept seperate as liquids within the weapon and only mixed at the detonation site.

While I still probably wouldn't want to breathe a burning vat of that "primary" chemical. it's not actually sarin gas until it's mixed with the secondary chemical and thus pretty safe to blow up.

Security could have handled it better, but dude shouldn't have refused to leave the plane when asked either.

Why him? If (as they seem to do, the way airlines gamble to avoid flying empty and unpaying seats at any timr) they have excess people and are willing to compensate at ever higher prices, how is "You're volunteering. Get off this flight!" in any way a sensible escalation?

Ignore the actions of Security (for now...  as I'm going to assume they got a message about a 'difficult' passenger, as sometimes happens assumed a drunken and rowdy one who was making threats of violence and geared up their response accordingly), there was clearly something else that stopped any other solution¹ happening and them ending up scribbling over the whole definition of "volunteer"...

There's doubtless more to the story, and probably not what any of us are thinking.

And then the guy escapes his Security escort and gets back into the plane cabin, if I read it correctly...  That'd be worrying if it were the only worrying thing in the whole debacle, but it isn't.


¹ Ask for (say) five more people willing to play Rock-Paper-Scissors in a tournament fashion, the least successful player to get the (compensated!) push off of the flight, the winner to get their food and drink free, just as an incentive to get players to commit to this 'high stakes'² gambit.  Wouldn't have cost them much more to do (less than adding a hundred dollars to the compensation offer),and it'd have been a fun conversation starter for all involved, for at least a couple of months of dining with friends and relatives and random joes who just happened to be in the same bar on any given night

² Or, for the winner, 'high steaks'! Unless he chose to have the vegetable lasagne... 

Airline is the authority here. You don't get to bargain with them when they say "get off my plane." You can be compensated after the fact, sure. As I said before.(Edit: Said before somewhere else, doh.) They pick people at random. If you start accepting excuses or "alternate choosing methods" you're wasting everyone's time and their money. Everyone can come up with an excuse for why they shouldn't be "it".

As for the guy escaping his escort and making it back on the plane, I want to say that looks like they agreed to let him board again to get his stuff(just a complete guess here, but the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for why they'd let him back on), at which point he refused to get off again and the plane was evacuated to deal with him and clean up. He might have in fact just ran away from security, I don't know.

[Dunamisdeos]

Ah, so the intent is to safely vaporize the chemical which is mostly inert until mixed with another agent.

Technically a true statement by CBS, though still amusingly absurd.

[Dunamisdeos]

You probably wouldn't want to breathe in hydrogen peroxide, either.

I know a certain Syrian dictator who we could probably get to volunteer United-Airlines-style.

For science.

[Starver]

Airline is the authority here.

I think the DoT has some say, in this case.

Which admits to the possibility of the individual concerned having been (one of) the last of the lowest-priced seat-users to have booked in (last in, first back out again...), but it's all rather a mess, at least, badly handled.


Whenever I've flown (well, maybe not that time of the school skiing trip, for which I can't remember how it was organised), I've had a seat number on my ticket from the off, but then that was business travel (even when it was still a Cattle Class bit that I was in, my boss being up in the posher seats) either around Europe or across the Atlantic with (usually) British Airways, not the "greyhound bus in the air" internal US airline service that it seems is of the typical overbooker type of company...

[Shazbot]

Sarin is a "binary agent" which is shipped around like baking soda and peroxide. Depending on how Syrians store their chemical weapons bombing the peroxide is kind of meaningless as it can be replaced more easily (but what a fireball!) and the more sophisticated precursor is worth hitting. Bonus points if you've got sarin splattered all over the nooks and crannies of an airfield you're trying to deny the enemy from using.

The targets hit in the airfield strike were primarily maintenance, fuel, ammunition, spare parts, ground control radars, etc etc. These things are what make airfields useful. Hitting the runway itself is a waste of time since any half-competent concrete company can repair it in hours, and in the meantime aircraft can take off and land on taxiways. Carefully. Airfields are actually some of the most robust targets to speak of.

Syria is out a couple of Su-22 Fitters, however. Shame. They'll be back to attack helicopters from this airfield which can be operated out of a soccer stadium.

[sluissa]

Airline is the authority here.

I think the DoT has some say, in this case.

Which admits to the possibility of the individual concerned having been (one of) the last of the lowest-priced seat-users to have booked in (last in, first back out again...), but it's all rather a mess, at least, badly handled.


Whenever I've flown (well, maybe not that time of the school skiing trip, for which I can't remember how it was organised), I've had a seat number on my ticket from the off, but then that was business travel (even when it was still a Cattle Class bit that I was in, my boss being up in the posher seats) either around Europe or across the Atlantic with (usually) British Airways, not the "greyhound bus in the air" internal US airline service that it seems is of the typical overbooker type of company...

Over here it's handled differently for different airlines. Some have no seat numbers and it's just first come first served once you board. Some let you pick a seat. Some assign you a seat at the gate before you board. It's always at the discretion of the airline though. I've had a confirmed seat number and simply been bumped to a different seat at the gate. It also often depends on what "class" of ticket you have... which isn't always obvious but is usually connected to how much you paid. Delta for example uses almost the whole alphabet from A-Z to classify tickets. Budget tickets are usually somewhere past W and are the sort that get often assigned at the gate.

At least in my experience. It's honestly hard to know EXACTLY how their system works, but you fly enough and you start to see a pattern... whether it's true or the whole picture is another question, but yeah.

DoT does have say, but their word is mostly in the realm of "Yeah, you can kick people off but you do have to compensate them for the inconvenience if it's not their fault."


EDIT: Just FYI, I went back and looked again, it's not hydrogen peroxide that produces sarin, it's isopropyl alcohol. Edited my original post stating that, but just wanted to correct myself here too since that's a page back now. Still a very common chemical with many uses though and nothing you can really control the production and storage of.