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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4461089 times)

smjjames

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If the GOP is supposedly dying, it doesn't explain how the Dems utterly failed to notice what was happening for decades where they were contracting to the urban/suburban areas.

Even if demographics are moving towards the Dems, it doesn't help if they screw themselves up.
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Frumple

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The Democrats eroded filibusters for nominations with their move to pack federal courts, and now the Republicans are giving them their own medicine over kicking and howling.
... did just notice this bit of revisionist golden mean bullshit, though. The dems did that after the GOP filibustered five fucking hundred obama appointees, including multiple moderates and outright conservatives. They were literally killing the judiciary when reid did that, even blocking their own people just to stop obama from getting anything done. Meanwhile the GOP is threatening to wreck the SCOTUS rules without even a single actual nominee fully stopped by filibuster, in the face of an opposition party known for being willing to appoint moderates to judicial (among other) positions. This is not a case of own medicine by even the most remote of bloody measures.

The GOP also had the better part of a bloody year staring in the face of a compromise nominee, and pitched a shitfit to stop him from even being voted on. Any worry about an ultra-leftist was their own goddamn fault at that point.

Let's try to not equivocate behavior that is radically different in the degree of bad faith involved. Letting that bullshit fly is a huge chunk of what let the GOP get as bad as it is, and by extension drug our entire bloody political system to the point it's at.
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smjjames

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@Covenant: I know you aren't being serious with the genocide thing, but attitudes like that would only make the hyperpartianship worse.

Yes, the Republicans in general have been terrible, but we should still try to work with the reasonable Republicans.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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@Covenant: I know you aren't being serious with the genocide thing, but attitudes like that would only make the hyperpartianship worse.

Yes, the Republicans in general have been terrible, but we should still try to work with the reasonable Republicans.
You just got pasta'd.
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smjjames

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@Covenant: I know you aren't being serious with the genocide thing, but attitudes like that would only make the hyperpartianship worse.

Yes, the Republicans in general have been terrible, but we should still try to work with the reasonable Republicans.
You just got pasta'd.

'pasta'd '? Does that have something to do with the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
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TheBiggerFish

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Copypasta, from copypaste.

I presume it's a meme.  With something replaced by 'Republicans'.
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hector13

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From what I've read of Covenant, he's not a fan of multiculturalism, and is enamoured with the likes of Trump and Le Pen and their nationalist ilk.

I don't think he was being serious. What he was being, though, I'm not sure.
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Tawa

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@Covenant: I know you aren't being serious with the genocide thing, but attitudes like that would only make the hyperpartianship worse.

Yes, the Republicans in general have been terrible, but we should still try to work with the reasonable Republicans.
You just got pasta'd.

'pasta'd '? Does that have something to do with the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Covenant took some satirist's/troll's rant about white genocide and swapped out every instance of "white" and "white people" with "Republican" and "Republicans". I'm not linking it but you can find it pretty easily if you pick a line and search it with the words changed.
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smjjames

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I got it with TheBiggerFish saying that it's a meme of something with Republican(s) replacing some word.

But yes, a lot of drama was made over the GOP looking like it's collapsing. It's stabilized for now, but the problems never went away, meanwhile the Dems are struggling with their own problems. So, really, both parties are a mess, just in different ways.
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EnigmaticHat

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If the GOP is supposedly dying, it doesn't explain how the Dems utterly failed to notice what was happening for decades where they were contracting to the urban/suburban areas.

Even if demographics are moving towards the Dems, it doesn't help if they screw themselves up.
I don't think they failed to notice that.  You just can't hold on to 100% of the US population as a political party.  The Republicans achieved it once, with the Southern Strategy, but all it resulted was them trading their original base for a new one.

As a democrat, I've always thought the "dems are losers" stuff has been pretty exaggerated.  I mean its US politics, on average you're going to win about half the time.  What I would say is that the democrats are coming unglued a little.  When Bill Clinton made the party take a sharp turn to the right, he created a huge faction of moderate democrats, which AFAIK is the dominant faction among baby boomers (which also makes them the largest blue voting bloc since old people vote more).  If someone over the age of 60 uses words like "socially liberal, economically conservative," to describe themselves, they're probably from that bloc.  These voters typically lean left on some issues and right on others, and have a lot of overlap with older swing state independents and the "fiscally conservative" Republicans.  On average they don't hate Republicans, but like those other groups they're disappointed that religious fundamentalists, who they're apathetic at best to, are being pandered to over them.  Because this faction fondly remembers Bill, this was Hillary's base.  (side note, this is why its so bizarre to me that she underperformed in swing states but matched expectations in both blue and red states, I've never seen a convincing explanation for that)

Contrasting that is the younger generation, me.  We were Bernie's base.  We're blue on almost all issues (for me, the gateway drug to this was being angry about post-9/11 culture and Iraq), we're angry about capitalism and the 1%.  We feel that the current leadership is weak.  Young blue voters and young red voters both share an anger that we've been denied something that was promised to us*, which was the Trump-Bernie connection (which was overstated but still there).  The thing about young democrats compared to old democrats is that older democrats aren't actually that horrified by most things that Republicans do.  My mom is a blue voter, for example, but she's also over 60.  That means she grew up in segregation.  She doesn't begrudge LGBT people or racial minorities their rights, but its not a voting issue for her at all.  She loved Clinton and thinks liberals can't handle the economy, so to her things like the government shutdown read vaguely like justice.  She hates the idea of raising taxes.  In a lot of ways, she's a lifetime democrat who could take two steps to the right, trip and full and suddenly be voting Republican every year.

My generation doesn't think like that at all.  To us, things like the government shutdown, the Iraq war justification mishaps, the immigration ban, stuff like that, these are sins that need to be punished.  A party that would do those things, and stand behind its decisions at a later date, doesn't deserve to exist.  And this is the disconnect in the democratic party, how we interact with the republican party.  Older democrats think that republicans should be dealt with mildly and with a lot of cooperation.  To them, the polarization of politics, the rise of Trump and the religious right, that's scary.  But the actual things Trump and the religious right do, eh, I mean its bad but that's just their political view and it has to be respected**.  To me that just reads as incredibly weak.

A great example of this is environmentalism.  Ask a democrat over 45 years of age, you'll either get apathy, straight climate change denial, or "I believe in it but if someone else doesn't that's fine."  Not so for young democrats.  If I saw a democratic politician get up, say that climate change is a fact, and proceed with five minutes of creative insults for climate change deniers, I would cheer in real life.  So of course the democratic leadership, both composed of and pandering to the moderate bloc, feels hopelessly weak to me and other millennials.  To us, it seems like if our elected politicians would stand up, all as one, and get real mad about climate change deniers and the right to abortion and everything that Republican politicians get mad about, we could push the Republicans aside in a second.  It reads like the party is afraid that no one will like their liberal beliefs, so they hide behind being non-threatening instead of arguing passionately for their beliefs.  But our party leadership isn't dumb, they know that the Clinton democrats are their big vote mine, and they are actually trying to shift left.  And indeed look at Hillary, she went hella left to try and draw Bernie's base over.  So like I'm not happy with the democrats, my main complaint basically boils down to "keep doing that thing that you're doing, but with feeling this time."

*note: we emotionally feel we've been denied something promised to us.  That's not our actual political view, and everyone my age would have a different answer for what we lost and who took it away from us.  Some might think all that talk is being entitled.  But the core anger is near universal, especially among young white men (which is why most of the alt-right is young white men, drawn in by conspiracy theories that its women or immigrants that have cost them their place in the universe).

**this is why Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment really hurt her, because it horrified the older democrats that formed her base.  I guarantee you that it hurt her far less amongst Bernie supporters, because while it was ultimately an immature thing to say to a lot of younger democrats it would read as an accurate summary of Trump's base.
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Frumple

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... if by hella' left you mean the policy that was being supported barely budged, I guess?

Seriously, for the Nth time, there weren't many substantiative differences between sanders and clinton so far as their platform goes, and the closest to major ones existed in economics and basically no where else. Talk where you please about just about everything else, but it wasn't policy that separated the two save for incredibly narrow voters or those that weren't paying a lick of attention.

Though I'd be pretty able to get behind a firebrand that was like sanders, but with more ethics and political sense, and a bit less fiscal insanity. Said it before, I voted for the guy in the primary. I wouldn't have by the end of it, but I did when it hit florida. I'd like the liberal platform to keep moving, but I'd be a bloody goddamn idiot if I didn't notice and acknowledge that the dems aren't much shirking things on that front, and are entirely willing to continue the push they've been pushing all my life.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 08:08:20 pm by Frumple »
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smjjames

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... if by hella' left you mean the policy that was being supported barely budged, I guess?

Seriously, for the Nth time, there weren't many substantiative differences between sanders and clinton so far as their platform goes, and the closest to major ones existed in economics and basically no where else. Talk where you please about just about everything else, but it wasn't policy that separated the two save for incredibly narrow voters or those that weren't paying a lick of attention.

And Clinton shifted herself leftwards to acommodate the Sanders fans, though she didn't move a whole lot leftwards. There were some differences in foriegn policy, but then, they weren't huge and didn't go into foriegn policy all that much in the debates.

The whole 'basket of deplorables' hurt her far more among the Republicans, which she didn't try to court. Not very well anyway.
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Frumple

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She didn't move a lot left because there wasn't much left to move, so far as the gap between them goes.

... also, that last bit. Have you actually read the context of the basket statement? There actually were, you know, attempts to court the vaguely sane portions of the GOP base. The statement was literally made as part of an attempt to court conservatives, who instead of going, "Yeah, those buggers are nuts." promptly threw themselves behind the worst of their electorate with gusto.

Not to say the words weren't poorly chosen, mind. Someone probably should have guessed what would happen, there.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 08:18:22 pm by Frumple »
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Dunamisdeos

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Standing up and delivering insults is a really good way to make sure that you achieve absolutely nothing.

You get the glow of having made a difference in the same way that a bully gets a feeling of power from forcing someone to feel hurt or scared. In this case the actual, practical effect is that the people whose minds you need to change who can actually effect the problem will only see you for how you try to hurt them.

You are effectively whispering about the problem that matters, while screaming about how much you hate your intended audience. They can't hear you over the sound of your own voice.
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Frumple

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Well, yeah. Point being made was that it'd probably make a fair chunk of the younger generations feel better about things, not that it would be effective. Vicarious expression of frustration, something like that.

E: Actually, I want to say one of the dem congresscritters in recent years from down here in florida actually has something of a reputation for that kind of thing. Completely forgot his name, though.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 08:32:50 pm by Frumple »
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