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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4459861 times)

Powder Miner

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Local politicians actually usually fit the views of most of their constituencies, because as I said earlier the parties are flexible enough that the individual politicians will have differing views. But that said, the districts are not going to be totally uniform. There are liberals who are protesting McClintock in California's 4th district, for example, but they're never going to get him out because the large majority of the district is very much the brand of libertarianish republican that he is, especially in Placer County, which is the most important county in that district. In a similar vein, people from around here are most lilely to haaaate Feinstein and Feinstein-Lite, but California is obviously mostly Democratic so they aren't gonna get them replaced, even if third parties were involved.
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Greiger

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... if you're struggling with those views, I think you may not actually be looking. You just described a good chunk of the democrat politicians.

E: Hell, barring the pro-choice it probably catches some of the more moderate republicans, too...
Hm, I've been getting way too much information about  people I'd otherwise agree with being against allowing firearms and gmos in particular.  Perhaps I've been looking at the wrong sources.  But maybe that's a downside for trying to find sources of information from multiple places at once. (Typically Reuters, Washington post, orlando Sentinel, and NY times are my gotos)  Some sources will happily claim a particular politician is against something just because they haven't made any public mentions for or against.

Still say more options would be better.   I don't suppose you could give me a quick link to some of those folks for me to look into?  There are certainly some other issues that I have strong feelings on that just didn't come to mind and I'd like to try to find that kind of information.   At least to help me find what to look for when looking for these folks.

EDIT: Yea Monsanto is a bad egg. But I can't claim to be against GMOs as a concept just because the biggest company that does it is evil (my grandparents were farmers that ran afoul of Monsanto).   I feel it would be kinda like saying I'm against copyright as a concept because of what Disney did to it.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 02:55:19 pm by Greiger »
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Lord Shonus

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At the national level, the Democratic Party is very anti-gun, which is why Sanders went from pro-gun to anti-gun during his Presidential bid.
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Frumple

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Not particularly quickly, as I'm half asleep, heh. Can try after a nap, assuming I don't forget.

... not sure "very anti-gun" is the word I'd use, though. Party's still entirely supportive of firearm ownership, and isn't even seeking to drive things as far as most other developed countries do. Relative to the GOP, sure, but they're less pro-gun than they are anti-control and have somehow managed to get the NRA lodged in something vital.
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Lord Shonus

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If you think the party of "Assault Weapon Bans", blatant lies about firearm case history, blatant lies about existing gun law, and insistence that there is no such thing as a right to bear arms isn't anti-gun, where do YOU draw that line? Just because most of Europe has gone full-throttle gun-banny does not mean anything less isn't anti-gun.
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Frumple

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If you think the party of "Assault Weapon Bans", blatant lies about firearm case history, blatant lies about existing gun law, and insistence that there is no such thing as a right to bear arms isn't anti-gun, where do YOU draw that line? Just because most of Europe has gone full-throttle gun-banny does not mean anything less isn't anti-gun.
Around the point they start calling for blanket bans on guns with anything approaching seriousness, mostly, or at least going most of the way to a european level of regulation. Actually insisting there's no such thing as a right to bear arms might help, too, considering the individual right to bear arms is literally part of their platform and regularly repeated by their politicians. Blatant lies about firearm case history and existing gun laws are unfortunately just how both our parties roll on the subject, so if I'm going to hold one party to that it might as well be both and calling it a wash. Assault weapon thing is a bag of stupidity, but so's most stuff either party recommends on the subject, it's just one party is spelunking in the NRA's lower intestine and the other... isn't. As much, at the least.

They're pro-control with occasionally shaky grasp on good policy implementation, but ownership is still something pretty fully supported. Both major parties in this country are pro-gun by any definition you wouldn't see coming directly from the mouth of the american gun lobby, heh.
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PTTG??

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The argument in the united states isn't what constitutes an "assault weapon," it's between big and little- 'R' republicans who claim that Democrats want to actually come and take their guns, and Democrats who say that's a paranoid fantasy.
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Lord Shonus

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If you think the party of "Assault Weapon Bans", blatant lies about firearm case history, blatant lies about existing gun law, and insistence that there is no such thing as a right to bear arms isn't anti-gun, where do YOU draw that line? Just because most of Europe has gone full-throttle gun-banny does not mean anything less isn't anti-gun.
Around the point they start calling for blanket bans on guns with anything approaching seriousness, mostly, or at least going most of the way to a european level of regulation. Actually insisting there's no such thing as a right to bear arms might help, too, considering the individual right to bear arms is literally part of their platform and regularly repeated by their politicians. Blatant lies about firearm case history and existing gun laws are unfortunately just how both our parties roll on the subject, so if I'm going to hold one party to that it might as well be both and calling it a wash. Assault weapon thing is a bag of stupidity, but so's most stuff either party recommends on the subject, it's just one party is spelunking in the NRA's lower intestine and the other... isn't. As much, at the least.

They're pro-control with occasionally shaky grasp on good policy implementation, but ownership is still something pretty fully supported. Both major parties in this country are pro-gun by any definition you wouldn't see coming directly from the mouth of the american gun lobby, heh.

"Pro-gun-control" is "Anti-gun". By definition. Of course, since you seem to think that opposition to gun control is purely because of the boogyman of the gun lobby and not because people honestly believe that gun ownership is a fundamental human right and that only an armed (or at least armable) citizen is truly a free citizen, you are probably completely incapable of seeing that. The NRA got so big in the first place to fight KKK-backed gun control laws that were designed to keep blacks easy targets. "Gun lobbyists" is the left version of "the gay agenda".


The argument in the united states isn't what constitutes an "assault weapon," it's between big and little- 'R' republicans who claim that Democrats want to actually come and take their guns, and Democrats who say that's a paranoid fantasy.
THe argument is between a side that says "We can give any gun we want a scary label and make it illegal to own" and the side that says "That is a violation of my rights".
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 03:28:21 pm by Lord Shonus »
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Frumple

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... no, I believe much of the GOP politicians position against gun control is founded in donation funds and lobbying more than anything ideological or supported by their base. We've seen intermittent polls and whatnot that show a solid number of the GOP voters aren't nearly as strident as the representatives are. The rest of what you pegged on me you pulled right out of your ass.

You might not have noticed or remembered, but I actually am a gun owner from a family of them. I'm aware of the argument from the direction of freedom and where it's coming from. I'd call it bupkis in relation to the modern world and doing more damage in the vaguely panicked clinging to absolute lack of oversight brought on by intentionally inflamed and cultivated paranoia than anything it's been able to prevent for some number of decades now, but it's not like I don't get where folks are coming from with it.

E: And whatever reason the NRA started growing damn sure ain't the reason it's the size it is now. If you think that particular group gives much of a damn about protecting minority rights nowadays, I've got some nice river spanning real estate I may be able to interest you in.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 03:42:20 pm by Frumple »
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Dorsidwarf

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Alternatively, it's between a side who believe that arming children will reduce gun deaths and a side that think the mentally-ill should face extra safeguards when purchasing firearms.

You can phrase the situation in as incendiary a manner as you want, Shonus, but the same can be done from the opposite perspective. I dont have any particular opinions on US gun control but you come off like you're trying to set fire to the discussion to illuminate your point.
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PTTG??

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I'm just saying that the last eight years of gun rights advocates have warned that Obama was minutes away from executing Operation Jade Helm. And that Hillary was going to do the same thing.

And they also somehow managed to be deaf to Trump promising to "stop and frisk" guns away from people.
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Reelya

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https://books.google.com.au/books?id=fd9Qc0neMjYC&pg=PA11&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
Gun Buyer's Digest book talking about the origin of the term assault weapon. It was a marketing term for the style of weapons. It mentions tons of gun buyer's magazines were using similar terminology to market the things in the 1980s, the marketing materials themselves for these style of weapons were listing them erroneously as "assault rifles" or "assault pistols". So the firearm industry did in fact use that language to sell the things, before the anti-gun crowd also adopted that language.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 03:57:52 pm by Reelya »
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Lord Shonus

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Alternatively, it's between a side who believe that arming children will reduce gun deaths and a side that think the mentally-ill should face extra safeguards when purchasing firearms.

You can phrase the situation in as incendiary a manner as you want, Shonus, but the same can be done from the opposite perspective. I dont have any particular opinions on US gun control but you come off like you're trying to set fire to the discussion to illuminate your point.

Here is the thing. Keeping guns out of the hands of unsupervised children, criminals, and the mentally ill has virtually 100% approval. "Arming kids for their own protection" is pure strawman. Teaching kids gun safety and how to shoot, so they learn to respect a gun and what it can do? That's popular. Allowing responsible, law abiding adults to possess firearms in areas that are now "gun-free-zones"? Those are popular. Saying all kids should have guns to protect themselves? Not seriously argued by anybody, but a popular talking point among the left.

Meanwhile, the majority of Federal and state firearms law regarding what is legal to own is based almost entirely on inaccurate media depictions and mostly cosmetic features, not on the statistical basis of risk that you would expect from the side screaming "IT IS JUST COMMON SENSE" while they're shoving it down your throat.



PTTG: "Stop and frisk" is another issue entirely, and would be irrelevant in this context if Team Blue hadn't pushed gun control very, very hard so that finding a gun was enough to retroactively "justify" an illegal search.


Reelya. That is not the point. The point is that, with no formal definition, any feature can be incorporated in an "assault weapon" ban, because it has no clear, formal definition. Who invented it is irrelevant.
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Reelya

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That's a red herring however, because any ban will be for a specific thing. Where "X" is banned, they do in fact specify a definition of "X" which then becomes the official definition in that jurisdiction. Federal and state legislation does in fact specify what is banned, and that becomes the formal definition.

There is no "universal" definition, but that is an entirely different claim to saying that there's no formal definition that any one piece of relevant legislation will apply. Lot's of words don't have a universal definition but that doesn't stop them being applied unambiguously in specific situations.

They can call it a "flubble-gun" ban, but that doesn't mean they can ban literally anything, they need to legally define what a "flubble-gun" is under that law.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 04:11:41 pm by Reelya »
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