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[Frumple]

... of course it isn't? It's just a bit of insight into pence's character, and nothing we either didn't know or couldn't pretty easily guess, if not the exact specifics. Side note corroborative with previous information, not anything more substantial, and more or less entirely unrelated to all the other shit going on we're waiting for more stuff to fall out on.

[Neonivek]

Yeah you know... evidence that American politics actively works against women isn't important.

What is important is Russian propaganda and paranoia over Russia!

Once the whole Russia thing blows over, people will realize it was never important to begin with and that we basically played right into Russian hands as it is (Turning on politicians for even the slightest of connections... connections that were often not even unlawful or unscrupulous)

[Frumple]

... neo, much of the problem right now isn't even the issues specifically involving russia. More about the stuff that, you know, we set about impeaching a president for. Perjury, lying under oath/to the public/congress/whoever, etc., etc. Several of the folks that are primary figures in the mess are set to be hit pretty hard even if they aren't ultimately acting as a malicious foreign agent or accomplice thereof.

[Lord Shonus]

If you are male, most people consider an accusation of sexual harassment or misconduct to be absolute proof.

[Neonivek]

There is a STRONG undercurrent in US politics that men basically get away with Rape pretty much all the time, AND that women are such magnets of rape that the majority of women have been raped. AND a call to loosen the requirements for arrest, jailing, and sentencing (that loosened requirement being... Them actually being proved guilty)

You can pretty much chose any rape website at random and get a load of false and inflated statistics. Whether it be how many women have been raped OR how many men "get away with it".

But in terms of JUST the courts... I don't think we have anything to worry about.

The only issue is that... it is kind of a Witch Burning scenario. It isn't unusual for accusers to be proved to be absolutely full of it and still have public support, nor is it unusual for anyone accused of it to have it hound them and affect them just as badly as had they actually done it.

It is a complicated issue.

One solution that I actually think is pretty smart... is a news embargo on rape cases until AFTER the result of a court case.

---

THEN there is the Sex offenders list... Which is the largest F freeken U to rehabilitative justice in America and is pathetically easy to get on it... and nearly impossible to get off it... And the exact requirements under it sort of beg adverse retribution.

I seriously wonder if you would be better off murdering someone then you would peeing in an elevator.

---

THEN there is the MRA whose poor reputation kills any sort of discussion on this topic in defense of men.

It is kind of one reason I don't like political topics in terms of "protection of men" is that there is such a thick atmosphere of "Anyone who argues men need anything is a woman hating sexist" is just insanely strong. Which is SOME of the reason why certain services took so long to be extended towards men.

---

THEN there is "Child protection laws" which as most of us know... are quite often insane and crazy... but this is too icky a topic.

---

So yeah extra complicated all around!

[Sergarr]

Yeah you know... evidence that American politics actively works against women isn't important.

What is important is Russian propaganda and paranoia over Russia!

Once the whole Russia thing blows over, people will realize it was never important to begin with and that we basically played right into Russian hands as it is (Turning on politicians for even the slightest of connections... connections that were often not even unlawful or unscrupulous)

Apparently there's a lot of Russia stuff scheduled. I don't think it's going to "blow over" any time soon.

[Frumple]

If you are male, most people consider an accusation of sexual harassment or misconduct to be absolute proof.

It's more than a male thing with teachers et al at the absolute least. Pretty sure I see more news in that field about sexual impropriety coming from women. Part of that may be because it's only news when a guy is behind it if things are particularly egregious, though. Never seen anyone attempt to actually sit down and gather/crunch numbers on the subject... which isn't entirely surprising, considering a lot of the stuff never makes it past local papers at most, and it's a complete bastard to track those over a large area/long period.

You know, it's actually really, really surprising that it's this bad. Is America full of paranoid people that think that everyone left alone with someone else is automatically going to rape them?

Full of that particular sort of person, no. Vast majority of people don't really have or cause a problem on that front.

But it only takes one, and particularly if you're dealing with dependents of one sort or another (kids, elderly, whatever) you'll rapidly find that there's almost always one or two parents/guardians that are basically completely fucking insane. They're the sort the kind of practice you quoted is aimed at.

One solution that I actually think is pretty smart... is a news embargo on rape cases until AFTER the result of a court case.

That's actually rather notably stupid when dealing with this particular class of crime. It's rather far from uncommon for other victims to come forward when they see someone else accusing their attacker, and that can be the difference between a rapist or serial sex offender of some other sort getting out and having a few more goes and not. There's false claims as well, but there tends to be those for any class of crime that can involve witnesses or multiple victims. Part of the point of our court system is to filter those out.

Though regarding undercurrents and whatnot, it's... not really that, exactly. We've got decent data on reporting and conviction (and successful appeal) rates. We're entirely aware a lot of people get away with it.

... all that said, yeah, a lot of the stuff regarding the sex offender list and a number of lesser/non-crimes related to it is all kinds of fucked up. For all we do have problems that need to be addressed, there's some pretty damn serious issues with how we handle laws on the general subject.

[Lord Shonus]

If you are male, most people consider an accusation of sexual harassment or misconduct to be absolute proof.

It's more than a male thing with teachers et al at the absolute least. Pretty sure I see more news in that field about sexual impropriety coming from women. Part of that may be because it's only news when a guy is behind it if things are particularly egregious, though. Never seen anyone attempt to actually sit down and gather/crunch numbers on the subject... which isn't entirely surprising, considering a lot of the stuff never makes it past local papers at most, and it's a complete bastard to track those over a large area/long period.

Women teachers in such a situation always make national news, while male teachers rarely do unless it is an extreme case. Notable, pretty much every case involving women involves a very long term situation, and either involves a baby or being caught in the act. Meanwhile, most of the male examples involve one or two accusations of something that allegedly happened two or three years ago. Both are considered to be identical standards of proof.

[Neonivek]

Except you just proven EXACTLY why we need those laws and EXACTLY what the problem with those statistics are.

You are ASSUMING guilt. We must protect society from this rapist! We must create a call to arms against this rapist and find all their victims!

The problem with how our society current treats rapists are... that they are punished long before they even reach that court room

And those statistics? Why is everytime they win a court case or appeal... they are guilty and just got away with it?

So how do you know they are "getting away with it"? How many are?

---

We just don't live in a society that handles Rape allegations in a healthy manner... and we have little-no ability to stop the reaction once it started. Yeah this occurs with murder trials as well, but not to the same extent.

As well if they are an outright immediate danger (so much so that while waiting for the court date they might go out and rape some more people) I think the US law system ALREADY has something in place for that.

AND if they ARE guilty... Then those extra women can rally after the court case... and create another case against them because of the statute of limitations.

[Frumple]

... you just read a hell of a lot of shit I didn't type, neo.

[Neonivek]

... you just read a hell of a lot of shit I didn't type, neo.

There is a difference between how someone treats someone PRESUMED innocent versus anything else.

You never suggested anything that would be a benefit to the accused and even spoke about how it would get more people to jump on the case AND protect people from the accused.

This isn't presuming innocence. This is presuming guilt and that they need to prove their innocence. It might not have been your intent, but it is demonstratively active in your writing in how it is dead set against the accused and the defense of their future victims.

Or rather... it shows a typical Double Standard.

--

Though... You might be right Frumple.

Just because you show the issue... doesn't mean you aren't right.

I still wish we could better protect the accused... and I have no idea how or even if we could.

---

Also I am really sorry for being a Jackass about it >_< if I wanted to say that what you said hints are a problematic mindset... there was a hell of a lot of better ways I could have put it... then to seemingly put words in your mouth.

[Azzuro]

Frumple's point, as I understood it, was that the additional people reporting 'yes this guy is a rapist' give greater weight to the initial report. What's more credible, a single person accusing another of rape or a number of people demonstrating a pattern over a period of time? This way, the judge has more evidence to consider when deciding on a verdict, and the speed to which he arrives at a verdict.

In any case, I don't see what presumption of guilt or innocence has to do with this matter. The accused is still just that, accused of a crime and not yet convicted. Additional claims of rape don't change that, there isn't a magical threshold of accusations before someone is deemed indisputably guilty.

Finally, you must realise that claims of male-on-female rape are still greatly biased against the victim and their reporting of the crime. Rape is emotionally traumatising, and it's no surprise that most victims choose not to report and instead hope to forget the whole thing (which usually doesn't work). Serial rapists become serial precisely because women are afraid to speak up, and it takes a particularly courageous victim to even admit that they've been victimised, which then breaks the stigma around accusing that particular person. If anything, censoring coverage of rape cases can only be a huge step BACKWARD for feminism.

[Neonivek]

Frumple's point, as I understood it, was that the additional people reporting 'yes this guy is a rapist' give greater weight to the initial report. What's more credible, a single person accusing another of rape or a number of people demonstrating a pattern over a period of time?

If anything, censoring coverage of rape cases can only be a huge step BACKWARD for feminism.

Well to the first point... there is actually issues with people jumping onto a case and is always considered suspect. It isn't as 'compelling' as one might think.

As for the second. It isn't censorship, it is a delay. Rape has no statute of limitations.

In any case, I don't see what presumption of guilt or innocence has to do with this matter. The accused is still just that, accused of a crime and not yet convicted. Additional claims of rape don't change that, there isn't a magical threshold of accusations before someone is deemed indisputably guilty.

Because someone of presumed innocence shouldn't be punished for a crime they didn't commit. It is up to the courts to decide guilt.

The issue is that we sort of live in a society that often presumes guilt and punishes the accused... and will often do so long after the courts do declare them innocent.

The whole "Innocent until proven guilty" isn't just procedural legal text... it outlines how the accused should be treated.

[Frumple]

... and the other issue (among several others) is that we live in a society that has pretty massive problems with reporting and testimony when it comes to crimes like rape (it's not alone there, mind -- the issues are near identical for stuff like abuse, basically anything where evidence can be slim, repercussions for the victim can be significant, and power (in terms of financial capability, social influence, legal control) easily very unbalanced). Innocence must be presumed and all that, but we're having to balance what that means with the flat fact that it takes very little to make reporting and conviction rates start to drop like a rock, and not because it's cutting down on false claims.

It's a real damn delicate balance, and with zero doubt one we haven't found yet, but it's pretty doubtful we've swung too far in the direction of the accuser quite yet. If only because we were damn far in the hole in the other direction in recent (sub-century) history

Though yeah, treatment of the accused and convicted in this country is pretty fucked up, too. Kinda' what happens when it can involve disenfranchisement and potential economic exploitation that's particularly attractive to certain sorts of politician and/or lobbyist to encourage. I'd just consider that as something of a separate, if related, issue, if for no other reason than it's endemic to our legal system rather than specific to any particular class of crime.

[Neonivek]

Could be worse I guess... we could be Japan.

Which I guess it isn't fair to pick on them... but I don't know enough countries...

Then again... I know some other countries have serious issues with what I shall call "Justice Mobs"...

So yeah the US isn't the worst country... but there MUST be more we can do.