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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4457836 times)

MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3465 on: March 13, 2017, 07:12:47 pm »



Obama wiretapped Trump's microwave so he always knows what hotpockets he makes
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3466 on: March 13, 2017, 07:46:52 pm »

Anyone noticed if the CBO estimate includes the costs related to all the people that lose insurance and all the lot that ends up with notably reduced coverage? Haven't seen mention of that, which is a bit weird considering their predictions of lower premiums seem predicated on less people having insurance and coverage overall being worse even for those that do, i.e. costs related to uncovered emergency care and insufficient ability to access healthcare would spike. Haven't looked too hard yet, either, though.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 07:49:21 pm by Frumple »
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3467 on: March 13, 2017, 07:47:39 pm »

So Steve King has gone full Nazi.
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Wolfhunter107

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3468 on: March 13, 2017, 08:18:57 pm »

That's really more white nationalism than Nazism, really. Still incredibly despicable, thorough.
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3469 on: March 13, 2017, 09:50:15 pm »

just came across this concept, seems applicable to our current climate.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/revitalization-movement
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Descan

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3470 on: March 13, 2017, 09:52:52 pm »

That's really more white nationalism than Nazism, really. Still incredibly despicable, thorough.
I understand the need for precision in language, but is it *REALLY* necessary to split hairs over exactly what kind of scumbag goose-stepping skinhead ideology these things espouse?
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Strife26

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3471 on: March 13, 2017, 09:55:45 pm »

That's really more white nationalism than Nazism, really. Still incredibly despicable, thorough.
I understand the need for precision in language, but is it *REALLY* necessary to split hairs over exactly what kind of scumbag goose-stepping skinhead ideology these things espouse?

Yes. As you noted, precision in language is important. Lack of it reduces comprehensiblity and dampens the honesty and effectiveness of rhetoric.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3472 on: March 14, 2017, 12:54:08 am »

Well, Trump has called the CBO report "bogus", which means it must look pretty bad. And indeed! Making 24 million Americans lose insurance is a fairly impressive feat, even if it does save money for the government and lower premiums (and it does lower premiums! Mind, you may not have insurance to pay for in the first place...). And mostly in Trump country and among his best demographics too, if you are looking for the funny side in all this (unless you fit that description and don't support Trump; in which case, just imagine that it's funny in a cosmic sort of way).

Impressively they have managed to redefine the game from "better than Obamacare" to "cuts spending", so they are, amazingly, going to push forward with this. This may be the worst of all possible worlds for them: while previously conservatives were the ones to loudly criticize and demand changes (and this probably won't take the wind of their sails, so to speak) it will make moderates much bolder in expressing their reservations about the bill. With narrow majorities, Republicans can't stand many defections, and republicans like Rob Portman of Ohio, and Bill Cassidy of Louisiana (no relation to Butch, I assume) are going down as skeptical: Cassidy was heard to say "Can’t sugarcoat it, it doesn't look good, does it?"
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3473 on: March 14, 2017, 02:28:07 am »

Oh, one of the fun bits is the premiums were only forecast to reduce for certain demographics. Pointedly, a demographic that doesn't include is the over 65 bracket :V

Can't recall how open the report is about exactly how those premiums are reducing, heh. Premium's reducing because your policy went to shit, you say? Well, you're paying less, right? You blighters didn't say anything about maintaining your level of coverage. Should have said something about that while you were kvetching people into office.
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palsch

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3474 on: March 14, 2017, 05:04:10 am »

So there is a scene in the West Wing where they are discussing some horrible internal polling numbers that show them down by a lot.

A journalist comes in and asks them about some public polling that shows them down by a little.

They turn to him and say, "that's not what we've got."

I don't know why that just sprang to mind.
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Sergarr

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3475 on: March 14, 2017, 05:55:31 am »

Does anyone have an idea why, exactly, Trump wants to push this Worstcare so hard, when it has significant opposition from his own party?
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3476 on: March 14, 2017, 07:19:47 am »

Probably mostly ego, or something like it. Thing isn't very capable of anything resembling a "yo', we fucked up." Among other things trump doesn't have a very good relationship with the GOP, and doesn't react well to opposition. His party popping up resistance is generally just going to cause the shit to double down.

Would be entirely unsurprised if there's some kickback involved somewhere in there, too. Lot of good shit supposed to happen for insurers according to the proposed bit.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3477 on: March 14, 2017, 08:43:05 am »

Maybe he values his 'promises' more than we thought, and this is one he can deliver on (repealing Obamacare) without too many reasons to do the followup (replacing with a 'better' Trumpcare).

Or, as the replacement is mostly GOP in origin, and his in-Party supporters (e.g. Palin) are somehow convinced that he will intervene to further correct the Republicancare plan, when it comes to the 2020 re-election, he's aiming to be riding high on a Trump Party ticket, to defeat both Dem and Rep ticket-holders for his next contest...

(Well, probably not, at this stage. But if he's still playing this game like a CEO, having loaded the WH with his own people, is he possibly thinking in the lines of a management buyout situation after strategically discrediting the more unbending political partners in the 2016 race..?  Doing a Kim Jong thing? Potentially President Kuschner in 2024??  Or First Dude Jared to President Ivanka???  That'd be interesting to see come to pass. In the Chinese manner.)
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3478 on: March 14, 2017, 09:13:37 am »

Does anyone have an idea why, exactly, Trump wants to push this Worstcare so hard, when it has significant opposition from his own party?

It probably is the legitimate best compromise Congress can come up with that is half way passable and also gets close to meeting his campaign promises.

The "significant" opposition isn't really all that significant. It's enough to keep it from passing easily, but we're talking about only a few votes margin at best. The fact that you've got ~90% of the Republican senators apparently willing to vote for it shows that it at the very least, if not popular, is possible.

It's a horrible compromise from any standpoint. It doesn't destroy the ACA completely like some want. It doesn't leave in place many of the good parts, which some want. But that's what you get with a compromise sometimes. Nobody is happy with any of it, but it's still a pill that many can just shut up and swallow because reasons. Reasons that vary from "good of the party" to "it doesn't really affect me or my people as much as others." to "My world view is skewed to the point where this actually looks better than ACA somehow, although I'm still not happy with it."

I will... with some reservations and acknowledgement that I haven't read every word of either the ACA or the AHCA... admit that the AHCA is probably better than just repealing obamacare whole cloth and leaving that void open... And this might be what some people are seeing. But... I'll use an analogy because I like making those....

Obamacare was a leaky boat. It wasn't what anyone wanted to board, but given no other choice, you'll grab onto just about anything that's floating in the ocean. Now... we've been floating along for a while on this slowly sinking boat. And half of us have been like "this isn't going to work." the other half are like "it's fine, it's fine, if we all just keep bailing it out together."

The "it's not going to work people" gain a majority, stop bailing, and start breaking chunks of wood off the boat and handing them out and shoving people into the water.

It's "fine" because we don't have to bail anymore. but some people are now hanging onto a board, others are sitting on a whole section of floating deck, and a few just end up with a splinter in their finger. An unlucky few were mistakenly handed a chunk of the now broken engine and begin to sink. Oops. We don't have to bail anymore... but we lost a few people... and now a good chunk of us are freezing, shoulder deep in the cold water, just barely hanging on. Still better than absolutely nothing... well, except those people who got the engine... and I guess the ones with the splinter, they're just annoyed because they're back where they started without a boat at all... and now their finger hurts.

Not a perfect analogy, but I can see how someone could see the options right in front of them and come up with this and push it as the "best". Eventually you're going to exhaust yourself bailing and the boat will be completely under, and everyone will be without. The truly sad part is that we aren't actually sitting in a vast ocean devoid of resources. We have the ability, with some work, and spending some money at the chandler, and maybe doing some research on how to actually build a boat... we have the ability to build a proper one, that will hold everyone and not require constant bailing by everyone. But nobody is willing to look more than 2 feet in front of them. To dangerously mix analogies, almost like the old story of the three blind men and the elephant.

TL;DR: We really need to address the elephant in the boat. Perhaps ditch the elephant, and make our own hospital ship, with blackjack and hookers.

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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Russia scandal evolution edition
« Reply #3479 on: March 14, 2017, 09:46:39 am »

... it's not a legitimate best anything, much less compromise. Just a half assed attempt at a goddamn terrible idea, stuffed full of its own bloody terrible ideas. Compromise usually tries to meet in the middle. This thing basically just gives the exact opposite of what anyone (outside the insurance companies and a portion of the wealthy, anyway) wanted.

Checkabouts have been suggesting it could actually manage to be worse than a straight up repeal, since at least under those conditions specific laws could be passed for the more desired stuff without being yoked to all the other shit trumpcare is trying to drag in. How the hell you manage that when the ACA has been being actively sabotaged by GOP efforts, I'm not entirely sure. It's almost impressive the GOP has spent the better part of the last decade trying to make this possible, and this pile of dung is what got crapped out.
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