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[palsch]

A nice interactive way to explore the data. Some... interesting scores there.

Sucks to be Buchanan...

A couple of those seem high.

CNN on the Senate Intel. Comm. yesterday, posted for the last paragraphs;

Sen. Mark Warner, the top Democrat on the Intelligence committee, did not answer questions about the focus of the Comey briefing Friday. But he did talk about the extent of the investigation he is building with Senate Intelligence Chairman Richard Burr.
"What we are trying to do -- and I give Richard (Burr) a lot of credit -- is to not have this devolve into a partisan food fight that doesn't serve the public purpose. This is so important that we get it right," Warner said. "But the amount of manipulation, why there's not more outrage about the fact there were close to 1,000 Russian internet trolls, actual people, working trying to manipulate our news."
Warner also said the committee has put in place a process to ensure the White House does not destroy documents lawmakers need for their investigation.

Flynn and the Trump transition team were working to try to stop resolution 2334 condemning Israeli settlements at the UN.

The episode also suggests that Flynn’s unconventional diplomatic activism in the weeks leading up to the inauguration was part of a highly coordinated effort at the highest ranks of the Trump team, including the president-elect, to shape the course of U.S. foreign relations.

That contrasts with the general portrayal so far of Flynn as a rogue envoy, whose secret talks in late December with Russia about sanctions were supposedly done without the knowledge of his superiors. Fox News reported Friday that Trump had been briefed on the full contents of Flynn’s discussions with the Russian ambassador.

[GreatJustice]

I don't see how anyone on the mainstream left or right can talk about the opposition being "conspiratorial". We live in a world where the word of anonymous CIA agents is taken to be absolute gospel, while the head of the NSA can literally make boldfaced lies to Congress and no one seems to think this indicates that they might not be the most reliable sources. A world where bloodthirsty warmongers like Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio were the "reasonable" Republicans but Ron Paul was a "kook" because he thought that American military intervention might have negative consequences. A world where mainstream media outlets seem to be under the impression that if Trump lifts the Russian sanctions then there will be T-90s rolling through Warsaw (as if improving relations with the largest nuclear power in the world is the worst promise Trump could keep)

I want to be anti-Trump but I really, really don't want to be on the same side as CNN and company.

[Neonivek]

I don't see how anyone on the mainstream left or right can talk about the opposition being "conspiratorial".

I am reminded of a man who justified being basically a near sociopath in Africa... on the basis that in Africa corruption is so common it is expected.

Which sort of completely misses the mark which is just because something is expected it doesn't make it right.

I want to be anti-Trump but I really, really don't want to be on the same side as CNN and company.

And you have fallen for the quagmire that is American politics and allowed yourself to be polarized.

Sure you haven't chosen a side... But that is because both sides repel you and thus you are cowed to inaction...

Then again as someone once said: "Moderates are often treated as worse than extremists"

[PTTG??]

...I want to be anti-Trump but I really, really don't want to be on the same side as CNN and company.

Take a look at other news sources, then? Politico and FiveThirtyEight are rational, calm, and mostly respected.

The fact of the matter is that having an informed opinion has always required work.

[Dunamisdeos]

I am deliberately apolitical in terms of party association, and it makes actually learning facts about things and events way easier.

My Facebook is purposely filled with people of varying viewpoints, including some that openly hold objectively offensive opinions. It makes it much easier to have an outside perspective.

[GreatJustice]

The issue is that at least with Trump there's a kind of balance of power between the new Federal government and the Deep State that makes it a lot harder for him to get away with anything. If Trump does something stupid or evil, its going to get coverage even if its for the wrong reasons.

Meanwhile, I can already see people practically deifying Obama despite all the stupid and evil things he did, and whenever I point those things out they accuse me of being some combination of a Nazi, a shill for Putin, a Trump supporter or a Birther, followed by justifying them with either "BUT BUSH WAS WORSE" or "BUT TRUMP WILL BE WORSE".

I can see many destinations for the Anti-Trump Train to arrive at, but so far as I can tell, most of them aren't any better than where we are right now. Certainly I don't want to go back to "Murdering innocent people in Muslim countries is okay so long as you stress how tolerant of their religion you are and cloak your actions in rhetoric about 'national security'".

[palsch]

So scheduled interviews tomorrow for National Security Advisor are McMaster, Bolton, Kellogg and late addition Lt. Gen. Robert Caslen. Patraeus officially out of the running now according to Spicer, but he won't rule out any other candidates.

Note that two of the four are active duty military, regarding the speculation yesterday that they might have more to lose refusing than the civilians so far. Both active generals are extremely well regarded and would likely fill the role extremely well as long as they are allowed to. Bolton favoured by KT, but previously rejected by Trump (supposedly he doesn't like his trademark moustache).

Harward is scheduled to appear on ABC news tomorrow. That could make life interesting for the other candidates if he chooses to confirm the reasons he didn't take the position.

[Flying Dice]

The issue is that at least with Trump there's a kind of balance of power between the new Federal government and the Deep State that makes it a lot harder for him to get away with anything. If Trump does something stupid or evil, its going to get coverage even if its for the wrong reasons.

Meanwhile, I can already see people practically deifying Obama despite all the stupid and evil things he did, and whenever I point those things out they accuse me of being some combination of a Nazi, a shill for Putin, a Trump supporter or a Birther, followed by justifying them with either "BUT BUSH WAS WORSE" or "BUT TRUMP WILL BE WORSE".

I can see many destinations for the Anti-Trump Train to arrive at, but so far as I can tell, most of them aren't any better than where we are right now. Certainly I don't want to go back to "Murdering innocent people in Muslim countries is okay so long as you stress how tolerant of their religion you are and cloak your actions in rhetoric about 'national security'".

Just be glad that it didn't arrive at a Clinton victory. Even if it's for the wrong reasons, and least the Trumpet's shit is being continuously exposed to the light of day. Another 4-8 of neoliberal corp-cap rule would just have put us further in the hole; if Trump pisses off enough people and does enough damage lashing out at the political establishment we might manage an outsider-ish candidate in 2020 who isn't an incompetent jackass.

[Starver]

I have been wondering, for a while now, how to engineer an anechoic forum.  Rather than joining a place that is likely an echo chamber, you would be given opposing viewpoints in a non-confrontational manner, and your opinions would have to be made available to others

What I'm somewhat lacking, in the conceptualisation, is how to let the information be "well, you see we on our side of the campaign believe FOO", and "ah, now, that's interesting... over on our side we believe BAR", without devolving into a flame-fest of predictable call-and-response, nor "I'm gonna fire off this propaganda and then completely ignore anything that comes back to me".  Also trolling (e.g. misrepresented stances, becoming deliberate straw-men for a given target audience) and other niggles.

Some form of anonymisation¹, perhaps, or pseudonymisation² for consistent counterpart-naming for the duration of an 'encounter', with simultaneous peer-review assessment of apparent partisanship, sincerity and civility.  But there's something missing.  Also need to deal with how to deal with minority opinions and/or minority of willingness for participation (not the same thing...) so that it doesn't mean crowding out with the more vocal voices, yet doesn't let a deliberately fringe provocation gain more weight than it should...  Which needs more objective (or sum-of-various-subjective) judgements than I'm really happy about.



¹ Hey, for the first time ever, on this device, I'm getting a squiggly-red spelling alert under a word...  except I'm utterly convinced that it is correct and I also don't know how to access the 'suggestions/etc' menu.

² Second time.  With complaints about the url tag (not the parameters!), also. There must have been an update.

[Sergarr]

The issue is that at least with Trump there's a kind of balance of power between the new Federal government and the Deep State that makes it a lot harder for him to get away with anything. If Trump does something stupid or evil, its going to get coverage even if its for the wrong reasons.

By "Deep State" you mean "Americans who care about their country not falling to outright fascism", right?

Meanwhile, I can already see people practically deifying Obama despite all the stupid and evil things he did, and whenever I point those things out they accuse me of being some combination of a Nazi, a shill for Putin, a Trump supporter or a Birther, followed by justifying them with either "BUT BUSH WAS WORSE" or "BUT TRUMP WILL BE WORSE".

Obama did nothing wrong. He's the best President to ever rule over USA in modern history, and only obstructionism by the corrupted politicians (i.e. almost all Congress Republicans and some of the more traitorous Democrats among the brief "supermajority" in the beginning of his Presidency) has prevent him from realizing his incredible country-changing potential. They literally blocked his every proposal, because they knew that if they let even 10% of them through, they would've been swept away, crushed and forgotten like a bad dream.

I can see many destinations for the Anti-Trump Train to arrive at, but so far as I can tell, most of them aren't any better than where we are right now. Certainly I don't want to go back to "Murdering innocent people in Muslim countries is okay so long as you stress how tolerant of their religion you are and cloak your actions in rhetoric about 'national security'".

In every war, innocent civilians die. That's not a justification to never fight wars, though. Obama used the most precise and most situation aware technology, i.e. drones stationed 24/7 over the terrorist-infested territory, to maximize the accuracy of his elimination orders. Were there mistakes? Undoubtedly, but far, far less than there would be by any other method. And you can't just leave the terrorists alone. That's how we've got 9/11 in the first place, remember?

[PTTG??]

The issue is that at least with Trump there's a kind of balance of power between the new Federal government and the Deep State that makes it a lot harder for him to get away with anything. If Trump does something stupid or evil, its going to get coverage even if its for the wrong reasons.

Meanwhile, I can already see people practically deifying Obama despite all the stupid and evil things he did, and whenever I point those things out they accuse me of being some combination of a Nazi, a shill for Putin, a Trump supporter or a Birther, followed by justifying them with either "BUT BUSH WAS WORSE" or "BUT TRUMP WILL BE WORSE".

I can see many destinations for the Anti-Trump Train to arrive at, but so far as I can tell, most of them aren't any better than where we are right now. Certainly I don't want to go back to "Murdering innocent people in Muslim countries is okay so long as you stress how tolerant of their religion you are and cloak your actions in rhetoric about 'national security'".

Just be glad that it didn't arrive at a Clinton victory. Even if it's for the wrong reasons, and least the Trumpet's shit is being continuously exposed to the light of day. Another 4-8 of neoliberal corp-cap rule would just have put us further in the hole; if Trump pisses off enough people and does enough damage lashing out at the political establishment we might manage an outsider-ish candidate in 2020 who isn't an incompetent jackass.

You don't burn down the house to clean the refrigerator.

[wierd]

...(And NO, it really *IS* both sides on that.) One side shouts about how 15 genders is too few-- while the other regales us it how horrible it is that a penis can go into an anus, and how it makes baby jesus cry...

We've been over this already. The VP has actively used electrical torture on gay people. A few annoying teenagers with no political power does not compare. SJWs don't perpetuate abortion clinic attacks, but conservatives do. This false equivalence is why we're in this mess to begin with.

NO.
JUST NO.

SJWs cause people to lose their jobs.
SJWs cause people to lose their careers.
SJWs cause division and hatred
SJWs DO REAL FUCKING DAMAGE TO PEOPLE'S LIVES, AND FEEL SELF RIGHTEOUS DOING SO.

"False equivalence" MY FAT WHITE ASS.

**DENIAL** is why we are in this mess.

You and Misko are both outright refusing to accept that your shit stinks too, and that there are more consequences to being an SJW than just causing "hard feelings."

you know, things like causing people to suffer financial adversity, subjecting children to poverty, that kind of thing?

It was perfectly A-OK by you guys when the SJWs were treated to the limelight in a respected manner by the MSM-- "defenders of equality and freedom" with all the rose colored hues--- but now that the light is reversed, and as Misko put it, "Breitbart controls the narrative", now its all shock and horror.

Newsflash kids. there is this position called being moderate, which rejects BOTH of you.  That is where I sit. I see the damage that both the modern SJW crowd and its absurdities, and the damage caused by mainstream religious conservatives do to society, and I rate them as equally offensive, because underneath all the posturing and preening, both are exactly the same thing:

A group of pretentious assholes asserting loudly that their way is the bestest way, and everyone else can just suck it, and damn the consequences if you disagree.

Pence supports electroshock therapy on gays-- yes.
Your side supports forced "mental help" for people who dont support your world view.  Aside from the electrodes, what is the functional difference?  You are BOTH saying the other side is wrong, and needs to be fixed.

[uber pye]

-snoop-

You don't burn down the house to clean the refrigerator.

cutting off a limb is a good way to stop gangrene though.

[TempAcc]

People, when the bay12 poster whose appearance most closely mimicks alan moore when he was still a wizard posts the most reasonable and sound thing in the thread'ss last dozen pages, I think we should prob drop the ideological batshit flag and start listening to him.

[Rolan7]

Pence supports electroshock therapy on gays-- yes.
Your side supports forced "mental help" for people who dont support your world view.  Aside from the electrodes, what is the functional difference?  You are BOTH saying the other side is wrong, and needs to be fixed.

No offense, but I continue to be more afraid with the side with electrodes...
And well-funded camps that have been running for decades, often not caring about consent.  The camps that are supported by the Vice President of the US.

I find that somewhat scarier than a recent fad of nutjobs who whine loudly.  They never had power in Congress, much less the White House.  They've barely *existed* for a decade.  They don't have any power to get people fired, besides whining, which makes me a little skeptical of such incidents.

They're a laughable bogeyman and it's kinda fucked up to compare them to the ACTUALLY powerful, entrenched in government and church, "respectable" organizations which have been mindraping gay children for decades, IMO!