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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4444489 times)

Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1080 on: February 06, 2017, 02:10:41 pm »

In all fairness... if this poll was taken... today (and not 4+ days ago) it would probably show different results.
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1081 on: February 06, 2017, 02:26:46 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's cool to see that almost a third of rurals are against Trump. Not so cool to see a third of urbans to support him. The partisanship divide is predictably off the charts.

I don't get it, though. His failures are not political failures, they're ethical failures! He's blatantly using the office to enrich himself. His failure to accept scientific consensus is objectively wrong (or about as close as you can get, let's not get into solipsism). It's not like he's just checking off the checkmarks on the "Republican agenda!" Obama, for instance, had an approval gap of 65%-75%, normally on the low end. Trump's gap is 80!

Look, I want to believe that Republicans have a coherent, rational agenda. But right now, it looks like their entire political standpoint is "fuck liberals!" Does anything else explain calls to repeal the EPA? Does anything else support insulting our allies? Is there any other explanation at all for throwing out the Iran nuclear deal?

Incidentally, the 84 Lumber ad was... far more political than I would have expected from a lumber company. Couldn't have been better timed, though.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1082 on: February 06, 2017, 02:28:44 pm »

Just watched a live broadcast of Trump speaking at a US airforce base.  Some highlights:

-The first thing out of his mouth was "great spirit" when the crowd applauded, and the second thing was "we had a wonderful election didn't we"
-Our navy is depleted, almost as low as WW1 (that's a long time ago he said, not going to happen any more "with me").
-He saved a bunch of money negotiating on the new fighter jet program everyone's been mad about, no idea if that one is true or not.
-we're going to see a period of historic military spending
-ISIS is on a mission of genocide across the world, listed a bunch of places including the Boston Bombing and Orlando shooting (neither of which was carried out by ISIS), then went on a tangent about how the media has stopped reporting some terrorist attacks because they're dishonest and have their own interests, "and you understand that."
-Implicitly compared himself to Reagan and talked about how Reagan used a slogan (Peace through strength) "in front of crowds of tens of thousands across the nation" which I lol'ed at.

Apart from those highlights, about what you'd expect an incoming president to say to the military.  He looked down a lot, I think he brought his cue cards for this one :P
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1083 on: February 06, 2017, 02:31:42 pm »

To my knowledge the Rhetoric for removing the EPA is that it is federal when state and local governments would handle the issue far better... AND that they want to shore up its removal with laws that local and state governments cannot deal with.

To admit though I don't QUITE know why state law cannot deal with the environment

But if I remember correctly what typically happens in a situation where the federal government doesn't get involved is the states start a bidding contest for pollution... Which would probably end with one of the states being "The polluted state"
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 02:33:48 pm by Neonivek »
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1084 on: February 06, 2017, 02:35:37 pm »

Just watched a live broadcast of Trump speaking at a US airforce base.  Some highlights:

-The first thing out of his mouth was "great spirit" when the crowd applauded, and the second thing was "we had a wonderful election didn't we"
-Our navy is depleted, almost as low as WW1 (that's a long time ago he said, not going to happen any more "with me").
-He saved a bunch of money negotiating on the new fighter jet program everyone's been mad about, no idea if that one is true or not.
-we're going to see a period of historic military spending
-ISIS is on a mission of genocide across the world, listed a bunch of places including the Boston Bombing and Orlando shooting (neither of which was carried out by ISIS), then went on a tangent about how the media has stopped reporting some terrorist attacks because they're dishonest and have their own interests, "and you understand that."
-Implicitly compared himself to Reagan and talked about how Reagan used a slogan (Peace through strength) "in front of crowds of tens of thousands across the nation" which I lol'ed at.

Apart from those highlights, about what you'd expect an incoming president to say to the military.  He looked down a lot, I think he brought his cue cards for this one :P
last time I checked we had the single most powerful military everything on the planet by far. I don't know where he pulls this shit from.
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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1085 on: February 06, 2017, 02:36:00 pm »

Until Trump builds a 100-km tall wall between each state, all states share the same environment, which, if I recall correctly, is what puts the E in EPA.

More information on the approval gap:

Obama was a bad example, his approval ratings, which were formerly the most skewed in history, were ~70%.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1086 on: February 06, 2017, 02:39:09 pm »

Until Trump builds a 100-km tall wall between each state, all states share the same environment, which, if I recall correctly, is what puts the E in EPA.

That is kind of true without a EPA there is no real vehicle for a state to contest the pollution of another state... EVEN IF they are directly affected.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1087 on: February 06, 2017, 02:47:09 pm »

Not only is our military overpowered, but the Navy in particular is super overpowered. International waters are practically the property of the US Navy in terms of security, and the lack of large-scale piracy is because of them making it futile beyond Somalia levels.

Oh, and on the EPA, the Republican rationale is pretty often along the lines of "environmentalism isn't real, also muh business opportunities". More rational libertarian types will try to revise this into the "each state should run environment regs themselves" story, but for most of the right it's genuinely much closer to Trump's tweet about climate change being a Chinese plot to destroy America's economy than anything else.
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1088 on: February 06, 2017, 02:51:07 pm »

Not only is our military overpowered, but the Navy in particular is super overpowered. International waters are practically the property of the US Navy in terms of security, and the lack of large-scale piracy is because of them making it futile beyond Somalia levels.

Oh, and on the EPA, the Republican rationale is pretty often along the lines of "environmentalism isn't real, also muh business opportunities". More rational libertarian types will try to revise this into the "each state should run environment regs themselves" story, but for most of the right it's genuinely much closer to Trump's tweet about climate change being a Chinese plot to destroy America's economy than anything else.
I've always thought "the states should take care of it" was code for "let the Republican states not do anything".
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1089 on: February 06, 2017, 02:57:02 pm »

Honestly I think Trump took the wrong tactic with that whole speech.  At risk of putting words in the mouths of our soldiers, what he needed to convince the military of was three things:

1. That their lives are not going to be wasted, especially the lives of the army infantry.  I don't our think fighter jet pilots or carrier crews are particularly worried about getting killed by ISIS, people who might actually end up on the ground in Syria or Iraq on the other hand...
2.  Nothing bad is going to happen to the homeland as a result of Trump being president.  No human rights violations, no nuclear war.  I doubt Trump has the self awareness to even realize this was a concern.
3.  Veterans benefits, for gods sake.  He insulted John McCain for being a PoW for crying out loud, and then in a speech in front of the military he has like a dozen words about veterans for the entire thing.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1090 on: February 06, 2017, 02:58:12 pm »

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No human rights violations

He already stated he wants more human rights violations.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1091 on: February 06, 2017, 03:00:35 pm »

I'm sure Trump thinks that soldiers who get wounded are losers like PoWs, and that the greatest veteran's benefit is the chance to have served America.

Why, Trump would be in the military to this very day as a fine commander of the Delta Green SEALS, if not for that heel spur of his.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Sergarr

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1092 on: February 06, 2017, 03:03:38 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's cool to see that almost a third of rurals are against Trump. Not so cool to see a third of urbans to support him. The partisanship divide is predictably off the charts.

I don't get it, though. His failures are not political failures, they're ethical failures! He's blatantly using the office to enrich himself. His failure to accept scientific consensus is objectively wrong (or about as close as you can get, let's not get into solipsism). It's not like he's just checking off the checkmarks on the "Republican agenda!" Obama, for instance, had an approval gap of 65%-75%, normally on the low end. Trump's gap is 80!

Look, I want to believe that Republicans have a coherent, rational agenda. But right now, it looks like their entire political standpoint is "fuck liberals!" Does anything else explain calls to repeal the EPA? Does anything else support insulting our allies? Is there any other explanation at all for throwing out the Iran nuclear deal?

Incidentally, the 84 Lumber ad was... far more political than I would have expected from a lumber company. Couldn't have been better timed, though.
Ethics are, fundamentally, relative to the individual. His actions are ethically wrong for you, but for them, they're good and just. Republican ethics are radically different than the Democrat's one. I don't know why did you think otherwise, they don't really hide it all that much.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1093 on: February 06, 2017, 03:08:00 pm »

Once again REMEMBER this is Trump not Captain Republican and even the Republicans are reeling at his presence but cannot show it too well because they have to show support at all times.

Heck the Republicans tried to get their own members to vote for Trump on the basis that the Republican party could reel him in.

While Trump is a republican and his beliefs align more towards then than the Democrats... He is far from typical... and more like an exaggerated version.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1094 on: February 06, 2017, 03:15:22 pm »

Back on the impeachment thing, all I'll say is that Impeachment is not like other forms of checks & balances. In theory Congress should impeach for one reason or another; in practice, Congress can impeach for any reason, including no reason at all. It's extremely easy to make up a reason, as two of the three attempted impeachments in history should make clear. And there exists no check on Congress's power to impeach. And as the word of one of the Republican Senators who crossed party lines to pardon Johnson:
Quote
Once set the example of impeaching a President for what, when the excitement of the hour shall have subsided, will be regarded as insufficient causes, as several of those now alleged against the President were decided to be by the House of Representatives only a few months since, and no future President will be safe who happens to differ with a majority of the House and two thirds of the Senate on any measure deemed by them important, particularly if of a political character. Blinded by partisan zeal, with such an example before them, they will not scruple to remove out of the way any obstacle to the accomplishment of their purposes, and what then becomes of the checks and balances of the Constitution, so carefully devised and so vital to its perpetuity? They are all gone.

Let me rephrase my argument. The question about whether Trump deserves to be impeached is irrelevant, and I strongly regret my choice of word there. The question of whether he should be is paramount, and my essential argument is that unless you really tar him in scandal in a way that he has as yet resisted, to impeach him (or to attempt it) would be deeply foolish, and until then talk of impeachment is premature.

Ethics are, fundamentally, relative to the individual. His actions are ethically wrong for you, but for them, they're good and just. Republican ethics are radically different than the Democrat's one. I don't know why did you think otherwise, they don't really hide it all that much.
No? Even if you were a hardcore moral relativist, morals and ethics are distinct concepts. Ethics are agreed upon norms, by definition. You might say that there are different ethical standards in the Republican Party but the ethics of an individual are just the sum of the ethics imposed on them by who they are: lawyers must follow certain ethics, journalists another, etc. The Presidency has a certain set of ethics that apply to it and no one else, and those do not disappear just because one person ceases to follow them.

Another difference is that, in America, no one can punish you for a violation of your morals, but punishment is expected for violation of ethics.
After the backlash they stopped releasing EOs.  A week ago when the anger about this was fresh (I can't believe I'm talking about that like it was another time), Trump had issued I believe 20 EOs in 9 days.
That's interesting; I had sorta noticed this (I kept checking the news to see what executive orders had happened that day), but I hadn't realized that he had stopped.

NYTimes has an interesting article on the inner workings of the Trump Administration, their strains, and the jobs strains on Trump himself. It's an extremely interesting article, and shows the other side of the Trump Whitehouse. Highlights include:
Quote
Aides confer in the dark because they cannot figure out how to operate the light switches in the cabinet room. Visitors conclude their meetings and then wander around, testing doorknobs until finding one that leads to an exit. In a darkened, mostly empty West Wing, Mr. Trump’s provocative chief strategist, Stephen K. Bannon, finishes another 16-hour day planning new lines of attack.

Usually around 6:30 p.m., or sometimes later, Mr. Trump retires upstairs to the residence to recharge, vent and intermittently use Twitter. With his wife, Melania, and young son, Barron, staying in New York, he is almost always by himself, sometimes in the protective presence of his imposing longtime aide and former security chief, Keith Schiller. When Mr. Trump is not watching television in his bathrobe or on his phone reaching out to old campaign hands and advisers, he will sometimes set off to explore the unfamiliar surroundings of his new home.
Quote
By then, the president, for whom chains of command and policy minutiae rarely meant much, was demanding that Mr. Priebus begin to put in effect a much more conventional White House protocol that had been taken for granted in previous administrations: From now on, Mr. Trump would be looped in on the drafting of executive orders much earlier in the process.

Another change will be a new set of checks on the previously unfettered power enjoyed by Mr. Bannon and the White House policy director, Stephen Miller, who oversees the implementation of the orders and who received the brunt of the internal and public criticism for the rollout of the travel ban.
Quote
Before he was ousted in November as transition chief, Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, the Trump adviser with the most government experience, helped prepare a detailed staffing and implementation plan in line with the kickoff strategies of previous Republican presidents.

It was discarded — a senior Trump aide made a show of tossing it into a garbage can — for a strategy that prioritized the daily release of dramatic executive orders to put opponents on the defensive.
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