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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4224331 times)

Strife26

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #750 on: February 03, 2017, 02:25:59 pm »

Misgendering is punishable with a fine of up to $250k in New York City, so your point about 'Left wing politicians aren't doing x' falls quite flat there. Or to use my own country, we had an MP (Jess Phillips, who is absolutely terrible) laugh at the idea of debate about issues that predominantly affect men.
Lifetime NYC resident here, with A: if it's business only then who gives a shit, B: If it applies to citizens then it's right up there with jaywalking on a list of "Never enforced laws". And all importantly, C: How come none of my local, NYC based papers have reported on this? I mean the sources I find online are Washington Times and Breitbart. I found it curious that I see them reporting on it, but not anything local, which presumably would draw more coverage. So I do a bit of digging. NY Times has nothing. Daily News has nada. NY Post does have something (it's worth noting right now that NY Post is not exactly the shining beacon of journalistic integrity). However, they have an interesting variation on the regulations, with detail curiously absent from the Washington Times version:
Quote
The city insisted that accidentally misusing a transgender person’s preferred pronoun is not against the law and would not be subject to a fine.

The updated regulations are meant to address “situations in which individuals intentionally and repeatedly target transgender and gender non-conforming people with this type of harassment,” Commission spokesman Seth Hoy told the Post Thursday.

...

Penalties of up to $250,000 can be imposed for violations that are deemed to be the result of malicious intent.
Underlines added by me.

Combining this with the fact that the only other places I saw reporting this include the Daily Caller (what?), I'm going to suggest that it's been overblown by tabloids and other rags, and that you do us a disservice by repeating this nonsense. I mean seriously, when even the NY Post's version doesn't sound so bad, and I can't find anything else local, I'm highly suspicious indeed.

I'm not a big fan of trusting prosecutor discretion to keep laws from being abused.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #751 on: February 03, 2017, 02:44:38 pm »

I'm not a big fan of trusting prosecutor discretion to keep laws from being abused.
I'm not a fan of believing everything the NY Post tells me, which is my point. The other point was even the Post's version is more moderate than the Washington Times version. Had a newspaper that was not a rag printed it, I'd have been interested to see what they'd say. But the Post is no bueno. You read them for the comics and sports analysis and nothing else.
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MorleyDev

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #752 on: February 03, 2017, 02:47:24 pm »

As for the Men/Women's Rights/Issues thing. Well, I'll grant an exception for what I'm about to say for Prostate Cancer. There are a fair few illnesses that the NHS could be doing more public education on the signs of in order to improve early-detection rates (Any talk on that probably belongs in the...well, I guess Brexit thread since that's basically the "Britain" thread).

But, aside from that (Spoiler'd because it's all getting off-topic):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But that's all getting way off-topic and probably better off in the Gender thread. Though I guess it can be tangentially tied in to the whole "In your lifetime, you will never see 8 women standing around writing a law telling Men what they can do with their genitalia" thing.

In other news, America continues to poke the bear: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38860352
Quote
President Donald Trump tweeted earlier: "Iran is playing with fire - they don't appreciate how 'kind' President Obama was to them. Not me!"

But Iran has said it will not yield to "useless" American threats from "an inexperienced person".
Quote
A very different approach - Kim Ghattas, BBC News

President Obama may have sanctioned Iran for its missile test a year ago as well, but President Trump's sanctions come in a very different context and from a very different team.

This administration is filled with officials whose are fixated on Iran, such as National Security Advisor Michael Flynn or Defence Secretary James Mattis.
Mr Obama focused on fostering a tone that wouldn't jeopardise the Islamic Republic's commitment to the nuclear deal. He rarely referred to Iran's paramilitary activities in the region.

But the Treasury Department's mention on Friday of "Iran's malign activity abroad" was a reference to Iranian support for Shia militias and involvement in countries such as Syria and Iraq.

There may be still be echoes of Obama's policies here, but the whole framework of the approach has changed and Mr Trump and his team are signalling clearly they want to cut Iran to size.

Does anybody else get the feeling the Trump administration is like a drunk at a bar, trying to start a fight with anyone who looks at them? Only instead of a fight, it's war. And instead of a bar, it's the entire fucking planet.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 02:59:58 pm by MorleyDev »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #753 on: February 03, 2017, 03:03:53 pm »

I consider the assessment of Trump as "inexperienced idiot" to be accurate, however--

There is a huge difference between "national security" and "funding terror abroad".

YES, the US DID essentially create the Taliban, was instrumental in the rise of ISIS, etc. Does Assad really WANT to follow that example? I mean, look how great that worked out for us! That smacks of blatant hypocrisy to me.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #754 on: February 03, 2017, 03:08:46 pm »

Harassment and discrimination laws already cover what's necessary; protecting someone from hurt feelings is not the government's concern, and certainly does not warrant risking the near-sacrosanct nature of free speech protections.
Oddly enough, the harassment and discrimination laws in the US do not, in fact, cover what's necessary. We still have plenty of persistent discrimination and harassment plaguing the country in general and specific demographics in particular, particularly ones that don't receive federal protections and only receive sporadic state level ones, that is not able to be addressed under the purview of current law for many of the people being screwed by it.

Which is why stuff like the NY stuff show up, and why legal rulings continue to be attempted to be brought forward as precedent or to overturn old ones. If the current legislation and enforcement wasn't failing, there wouldn't be nearly enough pressure to get such efforts into effect. But it is, particularly for groups such as that the NY bit addressed.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #755 on: February 03, 2017, 03:15:41 pm »

I don't think 'bear' would be appropriate for Iran, not sure if there are any in Iran. Lion maybe? Although the asiastic lions are an endangered species there in Iran (if they are in Iran).

The analogy still works anyhow.

No surprise that Trump is having a hard time being taken seriously. Though I can't blame the Iranians for their position either. After all, Obama was decried as inexperienced (though Trump has even LESS experience) and according to some people, Iradidn't take Obama very seriously either.
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #756 on: February 03, 2017, 03:16:47 pm »

Holy shit this thread exploded.

I saw an interesting point, earlier, about Trump.  How, while his actions aren't the best, they are terribly evil either.  No worse then some of the other presidents we have had.  However, the way he goes about doing them is generally insulting and petty.  Going as far as to call someone who disagrees with him a "Traitor".

That, more then anything else, scares me.  That sort of talk shouldn't be part of a democracy.  Democracies are not Us versus Them, because one of the core tenants of a democracy is protection of the minorities.

Anyway, my two cents.  I fear the cultural change in politics due to Trump more then most of his policies.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #757 on: February 03, 2017, 03:22:28 pm »

Holy shit this thread exploded.

I saw an interesting point, earlier, about Trump.  How, while his actions aren't the best, they are terribly evil either.  No worse then some of the other presidents we have had.  However, the way he goes about doing them is generally insulting and petty.  Going as far as to call someone who disagrees with him a "Traitor".

That, more then anything else, scares me.  That sort of talk shouldn't be part of a democracy.  Democracies are not Us versus Them, because one of the core tenants of a democracy is protection of the minorities.

Anyway, my two cents.  I fear the cultural change in politics due to Trump more then most of his policies.

It moves along in spurts, yeah. And the cultural change in politics has been happening for a long time, we're just seeing one end result.

Anyhow, the military tried so hard to prove that the Yemen raid was worth it that they botched up the release of the videos.
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #758 on: February 03, 2017, 03:25:52 pm »

Holy shit this thread exploded.

I saw an interesting point, earlier, about Trump.  How, while his actions aren't the best, they are terribly evil either.  No worse then some of the other presidents we have had.  However, the way he goes about doing them is generally insulting and petty.  Going as far as to call someone who disagrees with him a "Traitor".

That, more then anything else, scares me.  That sort of talk shouldn't be part of a democracy.  Democracies are not Us versus Them, because one of the core tenants of a democracy is protection of the minorities.

Anyway, my two cents.  I fear the cultural change in politics due to Trump more then most of his policies.

It moves along in spurts, yeah. And the cultural change in politics has been happening for a long time, we're just seeing one end result.

Anyhow, the military tried so hard to prove that the Yemen raid was worth it that they botched up the release of the videos.

I agree about cultural change, but I feel like it hadn't reached critical mass yet.  After Trump, who knows... it may just continue to become more and more toxic, until finally it collapses.  We will have to see.  No empire lasts forever, and I feel like the time of American Superiority has come to an end, for good or for ill.  Hopefully we wont end up with another world war as all the superpowers jockey for top dog.

Either that, or this will be a wake up call and things will start shifting away.

Or nothing will happen.

It's always hard to say.  But honestly the way he says things scares me.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #759 on: February 03, 2017, 03:30:12 pm »

* remembers issuing warning about counter cultural backlash against modern progressivism (for being too aggressive) in the old thread.

*remembers being ridiculed for it...

"Called it."
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itisnotlogical

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #760 on: February 03, 2017, 03:38:50 pm »

"Please don't say this rude thing okay thanks"
"What? How dare you tell me to behave myself! I'll be even MORE of an asshole! Look how disrespectful I can be! Lalala I don't care about anybody except myself!"

I know there will always be assholes but it seems like this kind of behavior is now the default response to anything or anyone trying to ask for more respect or equal treatment.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #761 on: February 03, 2017, 03:43:10 pm »

More like this:

"My self opinion is more correct/needs more protection than your opinion of me!! I will get the laws to support my side to force you to recant!"

"No, I will not change my opinion, and laws can be changed back, hard. Don't try it."

"But my FEEELS!!"

"Don't matter."

"WHAAAAA!"

_-----

Or at least, that seems to be the major slapping fit going on.

The centrist philosophy is that you don't really matter any more than the other person. The bigot has a right to their bigotry. They don't have a right to hurt people be denying them equal access because of their bigotry.

Likewise, the delicate flower has a right to feel like a delicate flower. They don't have the right to force people to treat them like delicate flowers at others expense.

When either side of that neutral position gains power, it causes resentment, which begins fueling counter culture.

Its not pretty.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 03:52:13 pm by wierd »
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #762 on: February 03, 2017, 03:50:42 pm »

Holy shit this thread exploded.

I saw an interesting point, earlier, about Trump.  How, while his actions aren't the best, they are terribly evil either.  No worse then some of the other presidents we have had.  However, the way he goes about doing them is generally insulting and petty.  Going as far as to call someone who disagrees with him a "Traitor".

That, more then anything else, scares me.  That sort of talk shouldn't be part of a democracy.  Democracies are not Us versus Them, because one of the core tenants of a democracy is protection of the minorities.

Anyway, my two cents.  I fear the cultural change in politics due to Trump more then most of his policies.

The whole country is exploding, frankly. This is just a localized example of it.

"WHAAAAA!"

Have you ever actually met a single person who told you what pronoun to use for them? Because I know for sure that you've met plenty of black people who've been treated as second-class citizens. The odds are quite certain you've met a homosexual who was treated like a freak. This bizarre obsession with a tiny minority of a movement only really discredits conservative arguments against it.

To give you an idea, imagine if Democrats kept talking about gun rights as if every member of the NRA was a 13 year old who wanted underbarrel katana launchers mandated for all military firearms, and federal subsidies on rail accessories.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 03:52:32 pm by PTTG?? »
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TempAcc

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #763 on: February 03, 2017, 03:52:26 pm »

Leave my underbarrel katana launcher alone.

In other news, it seems Milo's book sales and overall popularity has skyrocketed after that violent attack on the berkley event.

An effort to shut him up made him more popular than ever. It even got a Trump comment on it insinuating he might remove berkley's federal funding if free speech is continually threatened there.

Good job lel
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 03:55:08 pm by TempAcc »
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itisnotlogical

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #764 on: February 03, 2017, 03:53:37 pm »

More like this:

"My self opinion is more correct/needs more protection than your opinion of me!! I will get the laws to support my side to force you to recant!"

"No, I will not change my opinion, and laws can be changed back, hard. Don't try it."

"But my FEEELS!!"

"Don't matter."

"WHAAAAA!"

_-----

Or at least, that seems to be the major slapping fit going on.

The centrist philosophy is that you don't really matter any more than the other person. The bigot has a right to their bigotry. They don't have a right to hurt people be denying them equal access because of their bigotry.

Likewise, the delicate flower has a right to feel like a delicate flower. They don't have the right to force people to treat them like delicate flowers at others expense.

When either side of that neutral position gains power, it causes resentment, which begins fueling counter culture.

Its not pretty.

Earlier in the thread. Law specifically targets repeated, targeted harassment:

Quote
The city insisted that accidentally misusing a transgender person’s preferred pronoun is not against the law and would not be subject to a fine.

The updated regulations are meant to address “situations in which individuals intentionally and repeatedly target transgender and gender non-conforming people with this type of harassment,” Commission spokesman Seth Hoy told the Post Thursday.

...

Penalties of up to $250,000 can be imposed for violations that are deemed to be the result of malicious intent.

Response:

Harassment and discrimination laws already cover what's necessary; protecting someone from hurt feelings is not the government's concern, and certainly does not warrant risking the near-sacrosanct nature of free speech protections.

On the plus side, if I ever visit New York, I'll be sure to make it well known that my preferred pronouns are 'Their Lord High Galactic Majesty'. That should be fun.

"We've already eliminated all workplace harassment ever so clearly the libtards just want their feefees protected. Also I'm going to mock the entire issue."
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