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[LoSboccacc]

Also worth noting that the refugees heading to the U.S. and Western Europe aren't generally the most desperate, but rather the ones who already had sufficient resources to fund that sort of exodus. A whole damn lot of refugees were taken in by countries much closer to their homes. Never mind that the majority of refugees from the "Syrian civil war" aren't Syrians or from contested areas.

yup that's the gist of it. moreover all the factions in Syria can stamp real passports, there are four of them of which basically all are bad and two that could take massive advantage of the situation.


besides if you get all the able man out of an oppressed nation, the problem just aggravates. not that there is an easy solution, mind.

[Frumple]

I suppose the first part of that makes sense, and I admit it's something I didn't consider, but the difference in being conscripted into a militia and joining/forming one willingly is pretty big to just gloss over. I'm still not convinced that making entry into the USA, where very few of them are even trying to go anyway (compare to those headed for Turkey, other Arab countries, safer parts of their own nations, or Western Europe,) more difficult is going to push people who fled a conflict to just go ahead and join the people who forced them out in the first place instead.

*shrugs* Thing is, they don't have to join up with those folks to contribute to the problems involved. Even just being that many more that piles into nearer but significantly more stressed (and more reachable by those inclined akin to those they're fleeing) areas is a contributing factor, and almost certainly they're at least as likely as joining the oppressors for survival to join some other group that's in conflict with said antagonizing force. Which is maybe less bad, but conscription or willing muster you still have that many more militants involved and lingering should the conflict actually end, with everything that entails.

Basically, what related stresses we take on is that much less falling on someone else. 'Sides, it's not exactly like we were doing fuckall terribly much on that front to begin with, but anything is better than nothing.

[muldrake]

Only problem is, he's been vague on so many things.

Exactly.

To coup or not to coup...you know, I'm not sure what's a worse quality for a World Leader: Malice, Incompetence, or Incompetent Malice.

Depends on the situation, where the malice is directed, what they're trying to do, and if it's better they be incompetent and malicious and therefore fail to accomplish their malicious goals than simply being incompetent.

[Baffler]

The real problem is that there's no practical end-state for that. Either you're accepting (eventually) the entire population of every country so afflicted along with plenty of infiltrators, or... what? You try to do so but don't achieve perfect efficiency? That's why I'm partial to attempting to solve the problem in a semi-competent way-hearts&minds is the right mindset, and it did a lot in Iraq and Afghanistan in the relatively few instances where it was done properly (this is why you need training for troops doing this shit, because poorly done military intervention is worse than nothing).

Could also play the hindsight game and suggest that supporting violent extremists and helping religious zealots overthrow governments ain't a great idea, but that's in the past.

Also worth noting that the refugees heading to the U.S. and Western Europe aren't generally the most desperate, but rather the ones who already had sufficient resources to fund that sort of exodus. A whole damn lot of refugees were taken in by countries much closer to their homes. Never mind that the majority of refugees from the "Syrian civil war" aren't Syrians or from contested areas.

This Trump fuckup just goes to show that there's bullshit propaganda on both extremes that needs to be filtered out if we're to have a reasonable discourse. The execution was shockingly incompetent and heartless, but the list of countries is pretty much identical to Obama's 2015 visa restrictions.

The war won't go on forever, and will likely end in pretty short order (at least in Syria and Iraq) if people would stop funding jihad there. That's why I think the USA should continue helping the Iraqi army kick out ISIS and the other bullshit infesting the place but back off in Syria and let the government and the Russians do the same. Secretary Matthis, as it happens, helped to design the US's current COIN approach that prioritized winning civilian support with General Petraeus, and judging by his more recent statements doesn't seem to have changed his mind on the strategy. It just need to be manged better.

Something will have to be done about their sponsors in the Gulf too, I think, but I'm very glad it's not my job to figure out what. Those states aren't especially democratic but they're never going to become more so if we and others keep overthrowing their goverments. And there's a reason I listed Western Europe last, heh.

The travel restrictions were poorly executed, and if the administration had accepted Homeland Security's reported suggestions it definitely would've gone a lot smoother. But this is to be expected for a political outsider candidate to have very little experience in politics, really. Even with the over-enthusiasm he's done a fairly good show of fulfilling his promises early on, so we can only hope that the administration gets a little bit more organized once the transition is through and they've taken some experience on board.

[smjjames]

It should be said that Saudi Arabia is one of those sponsors and is actually promoting the same kind of salafist ideology that ISIS is doing, or maybe were, not sure their current state on supporting that kind of thing. But yeah, those state sponsors there have to be dealt with somehow. Can't really think of anything short of military intervention and regieme change (at least right at this moment) that would help. I'm sure there are carrot-and-stick techniques, but Saudi Arabia and Iran are going to be the hardest maybe since Iran is using them in the same way that the US used rebel forces as proxies during the Cold War and Saudi Arabia likely has similar.

[ChairmanPoo]

Losbocacc keeps urging people to deport intellectuals back to their oppressive countries so they "help fix the situation". He argues it because it worked just great with the Khmer Rouge

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The travel restrictions were poorly executed, and if the administration had accepted Homeland Security's reported suggestions it definitely would've gone a lot smoother. But this is to be expected for a political outsider candidate to have very little experience in politics, really. Even with the over-enthusiasm he's done a fairly good show of fulfilling his promises early on, so we can only hope that the administration gets a little bit more organized once the transition is through and they've taken some experience on board.

This isn't a matter of experience, it's a matter of approach. Trump is clearly determined to only appoint those who will accept his party line, we know this because he started being President and doing things with a massive number of vacant offices. More people will probably only strengthen the echo chamber.

[Frumple]

But this is to be expected for a political outsider candidate to have very little experience in politics, really.

... see, just a little bit ago I said a few words on business practices...

No, this is not to be expected for an outsider than has little experience in politics, not unless they have fairly significant character and/or cognition flaws. Experience has nothing to do with it, having less foresight than a blind lobotomized rhesus macaque does (that's the charitable interpretation, mind; the other ones involve varying degrees of malice). Please don't be one of those people that piss all over actual outsiders of little experience that are worth two dessicated damns by saying this is the level of behavior you expect from them

Even if y'lack experience, you can have enthusiasm without enthusiastically shooting yourself in the foot in the process. Generally it ain't even that difficult (to at least only clip a toe instead of burying the bullet right in the center) if you stop to think for two seconds, or have the basic administration/leadership competence the nonexistent gods gave a diseased pinecone. And we really should be able to expect at least that much from a political candidate, regardless of their previous experience or adherence to current political structure. Clearly we can't from trump, but that was clear a long time ago. Let's at least not let his actions set the bar for those that come later.

Rest of that bit, just... fine, okay, if you call this fulfilling promises. Just, for love of fornication, please don't internalize this as normal, standard practice, or anything even remotely resembling either, even for folks of a roughly similar background. It's not. At all.

The war won't go on forever, and will likely end in pretty short order (at least in Syria and Iraq) if people would stop funding jihad there. That's why I think the USA should continue helping the Iraqi army kick out ISIS and the other bullshit infesting the place but back off in Syria and let the government and the Russians do the same.

*scratches head* The conflicts in that region have been going on for longer than I've been alive, and probably longer than both our lifespans combined. This particular conflict may be coming to a temporary close, but for all it's been pretty terrible the actual conflicts are rarely more than a small fraction of the problem. Funding is only part of it, and while that should be addressed, too, the stuff I was talking about was the human resource aspect, leftover soldiers old and new. Even ignoring the base ethical component, that's a good chunk of what refugee related political stuff is about, trying to reduce the likelihood of radicalization, increase the resources nearer state actors have to deal with their own groups or military/etc. response to the conflict itself, all that sort of junk. Yeah, the US's investment in that's been kinda' piss poor (particularly related to our capability) and those we did take in generally not the likeliest risk vector or whathaveyou, but... every bit helps, and at least we should have been avoiding making the step from anemic to actively counterproductive, y'know? Remains to be seen if we're going to actually manage to backpeddle on that front, but...

[LoSboccacc]

Losbocacc keeps urging people to deport intellectuals back to their oppressive countries so they "help fix the situation". He argues it because it worked just great with the Khmer Rouge

no, I keep arguing to not confusing political activist seeking asylum with economic migrants that are running from being on the receiving end of violence so they can be the top dog of a new community.

[Reelya]

It's kind of scary how all the qualifiers on who is and isn't going to be deported or banned are gradually creeping up.

Back around the election it was "criminal illegal immigrants". Then it was refugees from X countries, then that stretched to anyone from those countries. And now, an Australian-born citizen is being denied a visa to the USA for a school trip, because his parents are Iranian (although they're both Australian citizens as well). So you don't actually have to ever have visited one of those banned countries, just a family connection is enough now.

Now an upcoming Trump executive order is expected to deport just "immigrants" who get welfare benefits. Exactly who is covered by that could be troublesome. All legal immigrants count up to 42 million Americans, and they are in fact subject to deportation if they e.g. commit a felony crime. So their citizenship isn't rock solid no matter how long they've been here. Making falling on hard times so you need to ask for welfare a deportable offense would seem a bit much.

[smjjames]

Well, well, well, the acting Attorney General went defiant against the immigration order and ordered the DOJ (Department of Justice) to not defend the travel ban, Trump then complained about it, which is expected, then he went and fired the acting AG, and so, there's a new acting AG.

It'll be interesting whether the new acting AG will still do the same blocking. It kind of resembles the whole "Sunday Night massacre" of Nixon where he fired (actually, they resigned) a bunch of AG's who refused to do what he wanted.

[Reelya]

"You're Fired" is one of Trump's signature slogans after all.

But I'm really worrying about any immigrants, their friends and relatives now. If they actually increase the range of things that can get you deported.

[FearfulJesuit]

David Frum has wise words.

[redwallzyl]

It's kind of scary how all the qualifiers on who is and isn't going to be deported or banned are gradually creeping up.

Back around the election it was "criminal illegal immigrants". Then it was refugees from X countries, then that stretched to anyone from those countries. And now, an Australian-born citizen is being denied a visa to the USA for a school trip, because his parents are Iranian (although they're both Australian citizens as well). So you don't actually have to ever have visited one of those banned countries, just a family connection is enough now.

Now an upcoming Trump executive order is expected to deport just "immigrants" who get welfare benefits. Exactly who is covered by that could be troublesome. All legal immigrants count up to 42 million Americans, and they are in fact subject to deportation if they e.g. commit a felony crime. So their citizenship isn't rock solid no matter how long they've been here. Making falling on hard times so you need to ask for welfare a deportable offense would seem a bit much.

if its as well written and thought through as the immigration ban then I'm sure we have nothing to worry about! /s

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

Donald Trump: Can we talk?