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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4464067 times)

Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8070 on: June 16, 2017, 07:16:35 pm »

First off, I think we can all agree that the situation where a woman has a baby, but doesn't want it is pretty Shit. I recognize that women want to have a right to their own body, but I don't see why that right is not given to the baby. And while the woman has terrible pain and financial distress at risk, the baby has their very life at risk. I am of the opinion that the baby's right to their body is greater than a woman's right to her body because of this reason.

I think abortion should be illegal in all cases unless the woman has a drastic health condition that would put her life at risk if a delivery was attempted.

Really: that statistic is horrible, but if we made abortion free with no obstacles, those babies and many more would die. Wheres if abortion is illegal, much less babies will die.

Only if you also ban the slaughter of all animals. A grown living animal is more sentient than an unborn baby.

If eating meat was illegal many less fully sentient, feeling animals would die.

How about we compromise with universal mandated vasectomies for men? Then we could do away with the unwanted pregnancies all together.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 07:19:04 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8071 on: June 16, 2017, 07:18:13 pm »

But if abortion is illegal, then women will attempt risky DIY abortions or perhaps back alley doctors if you want to get REALLY shady. Hence the dillemma.

And lets get off of this tangent before it results in Toady One locking the thread and reprimanding people (though it's more likely I'll lock the thread).

@MSH: Except that you can't separate abortion from abortion politics, like you can't separate guns from gun politics.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8072 on: June 16, 2017, 07:18:41 pm »

Alright, we done then.
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Playergamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8073 on: June 16, 2017, 07:19:00 pm »

i'm not going to be disappointed with the future at all.

the civil war is finally fucking happening. huzzah.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8074 on: June 16, 2017, 07:20:48 pm »

ha wut playergamer. lol.
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Playergamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8075 on: June 16, 2017, 07:23:56 pm »

well i mean, a lot of people are gonna die yeah, but i've got all these beans and bullets, so i'm honestly kinda relieved it's finally happening.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8076 on: June 16, 2017, 07:30:29 pm »

I am interested in your Civil War. The last one was great. It had Ultron.

Please tell me about yours.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8077 on: June 16, 2017, 07:31:07 pm »

Ultron was in avengers 2

Civil war had Zero and Ally in it.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8078 on: June 16, 2017, 07:31:55 pm »

In an attempt to rail this somewhere...

This is both funny and sad at the same time: http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/338228-aides-describe-trump-yelling-at-tv-sets-over-russia-probe-report

I know, I know, who doesn't yell at the TV when watching sports, but still, given the position of President, it just seems... undignified or something.

Also this quote from http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/politics/trump-camp-david-visit/index.html

""You're in the woods, on top of a mountain, so if you see a mouse in the house, don't lose your mind," Mongiello said, recounting one such episode with first lady Hillary Clinton screaming after seeing a rodent. "The Secret Service came running," he said." Rofl

Hillary Clinton freaking out over a mouse is something that I wouldn't imagine her doing.

Interesting that he's checking out Camp David though.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 07:44:17 pm by smjjames »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8079 on: June 16, 2017, 07:41:26 pm »

... I don't think I've ever yelled at a TV, actually? Always been kind of an impolite thing to do to other folks in the house.

Though I probably kinda' cheat, there. I've watched like... one or two episodes of anything on a TV in the last five years or so. Before that it was probably another five or ten or something where it was more common, but only because I was rooming with folks at college somewhere in there. NCIS was alright.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8080 on: June 16, 2017, 07:49:24 pm »

Pro-life..?
Yup, this has always been a problem with the "economic issues" conservative and "religious issues" conservative being in the same coalition.  A basic ethics difference between the USA left and right is this: what kind of death is society responsible for?  The left and the right both agree, if a foreign army comes and kills an American on our soil, that's a death that the government should have prevented if it could have.  But, if an American gets sick and can't afford medicine, is that the government's business?  If someone is homeless or starving, is that the government's business?  Left says yes, right says no.  Except that American Christians have a long history of charitable works focused on the local poor.  If American history ended 100 years ago and I had to guess the rest, I would tell you that religious Americans would be pro welfare.

Abortion is an economically relevant decision a person makes for themselves.  And indeed, many libertarians would say that if you don't believe in a medical procedure, even if you can afford it for your kid, you should be allowed to not pay for it.  Likewise, if a parent can't afford an expensive procedure for their kid, it isn't the government's right to make doctor's provide the care for free.  Under an economically conservative attitude, adults can make medical decisions that result in the death of kids.  And so, from both a states rights and economic issues perspective, in a vacuum, abortion should be allowed.  Its your body, its your money, its your fetus.  Its your personal choice if you think a fetus is alive and regardless of whether it is, surely the useful service these professionals are offering will improve the lots of children and mothers in the long term?  The free market provides, in this case it provides family planning and termination of unsafe pregnancies.

So the issue becomes this: what happens when you have these two very alien perspectives in bed with each other?  You get a view that makes little sense for either of them.  If a fetus dies by abortion, is that the government's responsibility?  The religious right's answer is yes... but the problem is that their answer should be yes to all the other cases.  If a kid gets sick, if a kid is homeless, if a kid starves, from a pro-life perspective it should be the government's responsibility.  They should have done something about it.  But that's incompatible with the more mainstream conservative views of small government.  As long as you aren't being actively killed by another human, its not big government's place to keep you alive.  You should learn to keep yourself alive.

This disconnect is causing Republicans some problems I feel.  Their base has so many no-go areas that its difficult to reconcile them, and that makes expansion of the base risky.  For example, as the narrative has shifted towards liberals being moralistic, dropping the morals legislation and switching to a demographics blind libertarian perspective could break into a lot of demographics.  "I don't hate black people, I think its wrong that rich district's taxes should go to poor district's schools.  Some poor schools are white."  I really do think a lot of minorities currently afraid of Republicans would feel much happier with them.  But that would lose the religious element of the base, which currently intersects greatly with the economic aspect.  Likewise, if the party dropped the jobs rhetoric and the condescension towards poor people, they could go hard on appealing to Roman Catholics as a way to bring in the Latino vote.  A platform of "its our good Christian duty to ____" could appeal to religious people without losing athiests.  Something like "as Jesus healed the sick, so too should we see to our wounded" would not really offend me if the end result was socialized medicine.  It would also let them isolate the sexuality and gender issues aspect of the democratic coalition.  It would split the democratic party in two, as many democrats don't actually give a shit about bodily autonomy or the LGBT community and basically just want the government to do its job.  Imagine a Republican party that could say that its against abortions and gender dysphoria is fake, but its for welfare and anti-war.  A Republican party that can walk into a liberal area, and proudly quotes bible passages while making a speech that *isn't* about hate.  That Republican party would be a force to be reckoned with, but it can't happen because of the economic issues Republicans.  And the racism.

Democrats by comparison have some mobility with their platform.   Environmentalism, gay rights, planned parenthood, socialized medicine, the 1% stuff; its all pretty much separated out.  A good example of this is how the democratic party turned on a dime when it comes to the war on drugs.  It really didn't have much to do with the rest of the platform so the party can change with the base.  The Republicans on the other hand show much more divisiveness on the war on drugs, because for the war on drugs are the moral issue Republicans and the racists, but against it are the economic issues Republicans.  Its not the norm, but there are libertarians who believe you should be able to buy Meth at a convenience store.  And so what's a Republican candidate to do?  The answer is that for them, its best to say as little as possible about the war on drugs.  And that's what happens when your coalition includes people that should be disagreeing with each other.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8081 on: June 16, 2017, 08:04:15 pm »

Sounds like the Republican party really should be split into two or more parties. Also, the Republicans could still be the pro-war party in your example and still work since pro or anti war isn't as affected by the division in economic and religious ideologies. Besides, while the Democrats like to label themselves as the anti-war party, they both have a pro-war streak and politicians can be anywhere on the pro/anti war spectrum within the party, take Rand Paul for example.

Also, really thoughtful post there EnigmaticHat.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8082 on: June 16, 2017, 08:08:17 pm »

The issue of "conflated issues" is a major problem with the somewhat abstract US notion of political parties, where the Blues have to be hard opposed to the Reds on every issue, because that is the best way to suck in single-issue voters. My go-to issue is gun control - if you divide people into three groups (Hard For, Hard Against, and Don't Care) you can see exactly why the Democrats have been pro-gun-control even when the polls don't support such a stance - the Republicans are going to get most of the Hard Against group, the Don't Care group isn't going to be repelled by moderate support, so the best thing they could do would be to try to get the Hard For group, who are going to flock to the people who are Doing Something in what they consider the right direction, even if those people don't necessarily go Far Enough.

Multiply this by every major issue, and you get two party blocs that don't have coherent platforms (in that most of their stances on issues are not really all that related to each other - there is no real correlation between gay rights and gun rights, for example), but nonetheless have extremely rabid core support because the most rabid supporters of each issue have flocked to one banner or the other.

This is a bad thing overall. Not only does it lead to nasty polarization as a whole, but makes it much harder to please the majority on any given issue. To continue the example, the vast majority of Americans would be perfectly happy with a better background check system (I personally think a shall-issue "clean check" ID would be a good way to go), but the Republicans fight against it because the Hard Against crowd fear it would lead to "may issue" laws and other "soft" bans, while the Democrats try to appease the Hard For crowd by only offering better background checks as part of a more comprehensive package that has much less broad support.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8083 on: June 16, 2017, 08:25:30 pm »

The problem though, is that the way our election system is set up guarantees that two major parties will dominate and third parties will have MAJOR problems getting any headway. The Democrats can trace their roots back to after 1820 when we briefly had a one party system (which had split into two by eight years later), and the Republicans can trace their origins to 1854. While there have been third parties which grew influential from time to time, the last time a third party actually reached the big leagues as one of two major parties is the Republican party.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Comey testifies in front of Congress
« Reply #8084 on: June 16, 2017, 08:33:42 pm »

I suspect that this is more to do with the way the US treats political parties than any election system could fix. Because of all the trouble the British party system brought about (such as, for example, the Revolution itself), the Founding Fathers really didn't want such a system to grow up over here. Even when some of those same Founding Fathers started the first American political parties, they were treated more as what we would call an individual's campaign team rather than a large-scale organization.


This lead eventually to what we have today - massive entrenched but amorphous parties that really aren't parties in the traditional sense. If the parties were tightly organized on the more traditional model, we'd probably see a lot more state-level parties that aren't just "Democrat, Republican, Other", because the 50 local branches of the Democrats and the 50 local branches of the Republicans are nowhere near as cohesive as the name suggests.
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