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[Lord Shonus]

As far as I know the most serious allegations are that Russia is behind the hacking of the DNC and Clinton's campaign manager e-mail which were then fed to wikileaks to damage the Clinton campaign. Then there are the reports that Russian intelligence attacked at least on supplier of voting software and sent phishing e-mail to election officials, even though there is no evidence shown that the attacks were effective.

The Russian investigation of Trump campaign centers on whether there was coordinations with the Russians which would be a BAD THING, and one why people like Flynn lied about their contact with Russia otherwise.

On a serious note, yeah. The voting software and election official stuff is the most serious so far, but even those were unlikely to have affected any actual votes. Although it was suggested there might have been issues with the voting rosters that might have been Russian influenced. In such a case... we might actually want Trump to investigate the election process? Could this be a case where 2-3 million people did vote wrongly... but come to find out it's because Russia messed with their voter registration records?

We're about due for another one of Trump's crazy allegations to have a kernel of truth to them.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot. The BIG claim thus far has been the fact that Russia has apparently been tied back to a lot of the "fake news" (original definition, untrumpified). They funded a lot of shell news organizations designed to just put out ridiculous news and clog up aggregators like Reddit with noise so that the "real news" couldn't gain traction.

I know for a fact that several social media sites were absolutely flooded with blatant Russian shills spamming anti-Clinton memes and conspiracy theories.

[smjjames]

As far as I know the most serious allegations are that Russia is behind the hacking of the DNC and Clinton's campaign manager e-mail which were then fed to wikileaks to damage the Clinton campaign. Then there are the reports that Russian intelligence attacked at least on supplier of voting software and sent phishing e-mail to election officials, even though there is no evidence shown that the attacks were effective.

The Russian investigation of Trump campaign centers on whether there was coordinations with the Russians which would be a BAD THING, and one why people like Flynn lied about their contact with Russia otherwise.

On a serious note, yeah. The voting software and election official stuff is the most serious so far, but even those were unlikely to have affected any actual votes. Although it was suggested there might have been issues with the voting rosters that might have been Russian influenced. In such a case... we might actually want Trump to investigate the election process? Could this be a case where 2-3 million people did vote wrongly... but come to find out it's because Russia messed with their voter registration records?

We're about due for another one of Trump's crazy allegations to have a kernel of truth to them.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot. The BIG claim thus far has been the fact that Russia has apparently been tied back to a lot of the "fake news" (original definition, untrumpified). They funded a lot of shell news organizations designed to just put out ridiculous news and clog up aggregators like Reddit with noise so that the "real news" couldn't gain traction.

I know for a fact that several social media sites were absolutely flooded with blatant Russian shills spamming anti-Clinton memes and conspiracy theories.

Well, it's a lot easier and takes a whole lot less effort to spread propoganda or fake news than it is to try and alter votes en masse. Human psychology, the internet, and social media does most of the work. Controlling the media narrative is something they're good at since they do that at home.

Also, Trump has pre-empted any taking the 5th as he's said that he is totally willing to testify under oath. It's an obvious minefield for him and it seems like his lawyer would rather have him plead the 5th, but Trumps ego would rather have him defend himself rather than hide.

[Frumple]

... I'unno about that last bit. By and large what happens of that nature outside the court room/official case related communication/whatever stays outside said court room. Beyond that, trump could ridiculously easily just be lying, and respond to being under oath by taking out a stamp inlaid with "5th" and applying it directly to his forehead.

[smjjames]

Mueller could easily put him under deposition though.

Meanwhile, the House Intel committee has requested both Comey memos and the tapes Trump was talking about, if they exist. I suppose if the WH hasn't given any sort of records by the 23rd, they can force the WH to hand over the tapes. They did the same with Nixon and at the same time, set a precedent.

[wobbly]

Mueller could easily put him under deposition though.

Meanwhile, the House Intel committee has requested both Comey memos and the tapes Trump was talking about, if they exist. I suppose if the WH hasn't given any sort of records by the 23rd, they can force the WH to hand over the tapes. They did the same with Nixon and at the same time, set a precedent.

Can they though? How exactly do you go about forcing someone to hand over tapes that may or may not exist?

[Cruxador]

As far as I know the most serious allegations are that Russia is behind the hacking of the DNC and Clinton's campaign manager e-mail which were then fed to wikileaks to damage the Clinton campaign. Then there are the reports that Russian intelligence attacked at least on supplier of voting software and sent phishing e-mail to election officials, even though there is no evidence shown that the attacks were effective.

The Russian investigation of Trump campaign centers on whether there was coordinations with the Russians which would be a BAD THING, and one why people like Flynn lied about their contact with Russia otherwise.

On a serious note, yeah. The voting software and election official stuff is the most serious so far, but even those were unlikely to have affected any actual votes. Although it was suggested there might have been issues with the voting rosters that might have been Russian influenced. In such a case... we might actually want Trump to investigate the election process? Could this be a case where 2-3 million people did vote wrongly... but come to find out it's because Russia messed with their voter registration records?

We're about due for another one of Trump's crazy allegations to have a kernel of truth to them.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot. The BIG claim thus far has been the fact that Russia has apparently been tied back to a lot of the "fake news" (original definition, untrumpified). They funded a lot of shell news organizations designed to just put out ridiculous news and clog up aggregators like Reddit with noise so that the "real news" couldn't gain traction.

I know for a fact that several social media sites were absolutely flooded with blatant Russian shills spamming anti-Clinton memes and conspiracy theories.

How exactly do you positively distinguish them from either legitimate Trump supporters (which made up almost half the voters in the country) or from domestic trolls promoting Trump to watch the world burn?

Mueller could easily put him under deposition though.

Meanwhile, the House Intel committee has requested both Comey memos and the tapes Trump was talking about, if they exist. I suppose if the WH hasn't given any sort of records by the 23rd, they can force the WH to hand over the tapes. They did the same with Nixon and at the same time, set a precedent.

Can they though? How exactly do you go about forcing someone to hand over tapes that may or may not exist?

Well if he doesn't, and then it comes out that they actually do exist, the impeachment for obstruction of justice would lose all possible subjectivity.

[Lord Shonus]

As far as I know the most serious allegations are that Russia is behind the hacking of the DNC and Clinton's campaign manager e-mail which were then fed to wikileaks to damage the Clinton campaign. Then there are the reports that Russian intelligence attacked at least on supplier of voting software and sent phishing e-mail to election officials, even though there is no evidence shown that the attacks were effective.

The Russian investigation of Trump campaign centers on whether there was coordinations with the Russians which would be a BAD THING, and one why people like Flynn lied about their contact with Russia otherwise.

On a serious note, yeah. The voting software and election official stuff is the most serious so far, but even those were unlikely to have affected any actual votes. Although it was suggested there might have been issues with the voting rosters that might have been Russian influenced. In such a case... we might actually want Trump to investigate the election process? Could this be a case where 2-3 million people did vote wrongly... but come to find out it's because Russia messed with their voter registration records?

We're about due for another one of Trump's crazy allegations to have a kernel of truth to them.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot. The BIG claim thus far has been the fact that Russia has apparently been tied back to a lot of the "fake news" (original definition, untrumpified). They funded a lot of shell news organizations designed to just put out ridiculous news and clog up aggregators like Reddit with noise so that the "real news" couldn't gain traction.

I know for a fact that several social media sites were absolutely flooded with blatant Russian shills spamming anti-Clinton memes and conspiracy theories.

How exactly do you positively distinguish them from either legitimate Trump supporters (which made up almost half the voters in the country) or from domestic trolls promoting Trump to watch the world burn?

Mostly because the same accounts posting "Killary" and "Pizzagate" crap were also posting huge amounts of "Russia is being picked on! Look at all the nasty not-Russia countries moving weapons to the border after the totally-not-instigated-by-us Ukrainian situation! Clearly they are the bad guys!"type crap.

[Frumple]

Can they though? How exactly do you go about forcing someone to hand over tapes that may or may not exist?

Send in the popo, basically? You get yourself a warrant and set to ransacking until you find what you're looking for, or don't and declare their existence prefixed by the non (with whatever ramifications that may have for statements made previous). Not exactly sure who the cops would be in this case, but *shrugs*

Usually you just throw out a subpoena and your target either capitulates or finds themselves in a delightful legal hell of a mess, though. More extreme stuff isn't often needed, as far as I'm aware. At that point you're either innocent and handing over the whatever ain't no thang, or you're not and your ass is already cooked and refusing can only turn it from well done to charcoal. Seem to recall cooperation being one of those things folks like to leverage for plea bargaining, actually.

[smjjames]

Mueller could easily put him under deposition though.

Meanwhile, the House Intel committee has requested both Comey memos and the tapes Trump was talking about, if they exist. I suppose if the WH hasn't given any sort of records by the 23rd, they can force the WH to hand over the tapes. They did the same with Nixon and at the same time, set a precedent.

Can they though? How exactly do you go about forcing someone to hand over tapes that may or may not exist?

Then the WH has to prove that they don't exist, right now, nobody (besides Trump), seemingly not even WH staffers, know whether they exist or not.

BTW, lost in all the recent chaos, Puerto Rico is doing a vote this Sunday whether to become a state, become independent, or status quo. Since Trump and the Republican Congress (especially Trump) are desperately looking for some kind of achievement, this is an opportunity dropping right into their laps.

And before anybody says that it'll be a Democrat stronghold and give the Dems a leg up, their Governor is Republican, and they'll have to work for it to get votes. Besides, theres no REAL reason to deny them statehood if they wished to.

Can they though? How exactly do you go about forcing someone to hand over tapes that may or may not exist?

Send in the popo, basically? You get yourself a warrant and set to ransacking until you find what you're looking for, or don't and declare their existence prefixed by the non (with whatever ramifications that may have for statements made previous). Not exactly sure who the cops would be in this case, but *shrugs*

Usually you just throw out a subpoena and your target either capitulates or finds themselves in a delightful legal hell of a mess, though. More extreme stuff isn't often needed, as far as I'm aware. At that point you're either innocent and handing over the whatever ain't no thang, or you're not and your ass is already cooked and refusing can only turn it from well done to charcoal. Seem to recall cooperation being one of those things folks like to leverage for plea bargaining, actually.

I don't think it quite works that way with the WH. I know they forced the Nixon Adminstration to give up the tapes, but I have no idea if they'd have to resort to a warrant.

[Cruxador]

As far as I know the most serious allegations are that Russia is behind the hacking of the DNC and Clinton's campaign manager e-mail which were then fed to wikileaks to damage the Clinton campaign. Then there are the reports that Russian intelligence attacked at least on supplier of voting software and sent phishing e-mail to election officials, even though there is no evidence shown that the attacks were effective.

The Russian investigation of Trump campaign centers on whether there was coordinations with the Russians which would be a BAD THING, and one why people like Flynn lied about their contact with Russia otherwise.

On a serious note, yeah. The voting software and election official stuff is the most serious so far, but even those were unlikely to have affected any actual votes. Although it was suggested there might have been issues with the voting rosters that might have been Russian influenced. In such a case... we might actually want Trump to investigate the election process? Could this be a case where 2-3 million people did vote wrongly... but come to find out it's because Russia messed with their voter registration records?

We're about due for another one of Trump's crazy allegations to have a kernel of truth to them.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot. The BIG claim thus far has been the fact that Russia has apparently been tied back to a lot of the "fake news" (original definition, untrumpified). They funded a lot of shell news organizations designed to just put out ridiculous news and clog up aggregators like Reddit with noise so that the "real news" couldn't gain traction.

I know for a fact that several social media sites were absolutely flooded with blatant Russian shills spamming anti-Clinton memes and conspiracy theories.

How exactly do you positively distinguish them from either legitimate Trump supporters (which made up almost half the voters in the country) or from domestic trolls promoting Trump to watch the world burn?

Mostly because the same accounts posting "Killary" and "Pizzagate" crap were also posting huge amounts of "Russia is being picked on! Look at all the nasty not-Russia countries moving weapons to the border after the totally-not-instigated-by-us Ukrainian situation! Clearly they are the bad guys!"type crap.

Seems like evidence to the contrary, to me. The first two are prime "watch the world burn" topic since they're pointless silliness, and so is taking Russia's side when it comes to Ukraine.
Conversely, putting clearly pro-Russia propaganda on the same account as is doing the most extreme posts? That's an amateur move. It makes much more sense to promote extreme views (that are extremely incompatible with Hillary for president) independently of anything Russian, and promote Pro-Russian views with far more moderate accounts. That uses the extremists to pull the middleground to the right, and puts pro-Russian sentiment as a normal and mainstream view, both of which are good goals for Russia.

[Frumple]

Well sure it's amateur. If what you're doing is flooding, there's not much reason to use much else for most of it, and it's probably cheaper than alternatives you could be doing something more nuanced with.

I don't think it quite works that way with the WH. I know they forced the Nixon Adminstration to give up the tapes, but I have no idea if they'd have to resort to a warrant.

They didn't with nixon because the white house handed the tapes over when the brass tacks finally came knockin'. If trump was more recalcitrant, I'm not sure which branch of our enforcement infrastructure would be rap tap tapping on the white house door, but I can't see any reason (save possible classified info issues, in which case you only send in minions with clearance) your normal procedure wouldn't happen. You'd still need a warrant before doing any pillage-y things that can happen when someone refuses a legally binding subpoena. Extra bonus points, you'd have precedent on what to do if this level of mess happens again :V

[Descan]

Re: PR:

What, again?

[Frumple]

Apparently? If they got the means to organize and interest in doin' it, more power to 'em, I guess.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I was pretty taken aback by all the explicit racism I've been hearing about Puerto Ricans in the lead up to this vote. I didn't know this, but apparently there are people with a serious grudge against them.

It's like someone was frustrated at racism towards the usual suspects not being publicly acceptable, and tried to go for a more obscure target to see if it'd work out.

[Cruxador]

Well sure it's amateur. If what you're doing is flooding, there's not much reason to use much else for most of it, and it's probably cheaper than alternatives you could be doing something more nuanced with.

Flooding isn't cheap. You've got to pay a lot of people. And they need to know English and they need to actually not be amateur at a lot of important elements, so why would they be amateur in this one regard? It's much easier and more effective to have a few experts (which the Kremlin does have) to write a few effective articles and use memetics to leverage a far greater impact through the sort of people who'll play with ideas like pizzagate. Especially since using memetics to sway popular opinion is the goal anyway, when you're trying to steal an election.