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[Ziusudra]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67209841

Republicans choose the next sacrificial lamb.

Emmers doesn’t have the support of Trump supporters, so expect another candidate in the next few days.

AP sources: Tom Emmer withdraws bid for House speaker hours after winning GOP nomination

NEXT

[Frumple]

Frikkin' lol. This is another one of those cases where the Onion's probably just kind of staring at it and going, "Well, the hell we do with this?"

[hector13]

Ah dammit, hoisted by my own petard or something!

To add though, I'm not just saying we should all run out and go beat up garden variety racists, though they are also despicable, they generally don't openly advocate for apartheid or genocide, but we have actual fascists running around, running for office, and running their mouths about how only white people should be considered people.

You don't just jump into the goose stepping salute throwing nazi fuck boat because you're a racist piece of shit, there are lots of racist pieces of shit who aren't open nazis or even klan members, though the line between kkk and gop is VERY blurry these days, and honestly they aren't nearly far enough from being 100% fascist to get any credit for the distinction.

No, you do it because you're an edgy bitchboy kid who listens to the shittiest people on the planet and thinks "yeah, I'm not disliked because of all of my many faults, ITS DA JOOS" seems like a valid point, and next thing you know you're in khakis with a fucking tiki torch and invading the capital.

Those cunts don't deserve the protection which everyone else does, they especially don't deserve the protections which their targets and sooner or later victims do.

If you hear "we should not tolerate nazis, and anybody proudly running their mouth off about this shit is inviting others to shut them the fuck up with a solid smack to the nose" and feel attacked, that's not on me yo, but if you feel concern about the idea of people fighting back against those advocating violence against vulnerable groups: stop it.

Ok, just stop, it isn't like we're just arbitrarily declaring "that guy is a fascist" there are people you can ask about who will openly and proudly tell you straight up they are fucking fascist fucks, at that point the proper response isn't 'well now, perhaps you're just mistaken about jewish people, let us reason together' because they want you to waste your time and energy doing that, they want you to help platform them by being seen treating them as serious people with positions worth arguing.

Very few people actually want to get smacked in the face for being a stupid fucking fascist, I guarantee you that not punching a nazi isn't going to work, and perhaps some will feel vindicated by the first punch... so you keep going until they agree to knock it off.

You cannot tolerate the intolerant or they will destroy your tolerant society.

Brosephine, nobody is feeling attacked because you’re saying Nazis should be punched, we’re saying punching them won’t do shit to get rid of Nazis.

Once again, I never said debating them is the way forward either, the ideas espoused by Nazis are clearly batshit crazy and we already know the tactics they use to be seen as credible crop up in debates (couching it in flowery language like white ethnostates or shit like that) so there’s no point wasting the time and energy. They didn’t become Nazis because the Nazis are presenting fantastic arguments, they become Nazis because their life is shit and the Nazis offer them what they need as human beings: acceptance and community, probably some other shit because humans are social beings and not having that need met is horribly unpleasant.. If they get them met somewhere else, then they probably won’t be Nazis. They might be racist motherfuckers still, because old habits die hard, but you don’t have to tolerate them espousing those ideas.

Equally nobody is saying not to defend yourself if somebody uses violence on you. I guarantee people will reconsider throwing a punch if you punch them back. Throwing the first punch makes you the asshole, however justified you think you feel.

So yeah, maybe learn to read sometime instead of flying off the handle because people think violence is inherently unhelpful and you think they’re defending Nazis.

Replace Nazi in your little rant with “Catholic”, “Protestant”, “Loyalist”, or “Republican” and look up The Troubles and you’ll see how useful violence is for beliefs that aren’t immutable.

[sodafoutain]

Frikkin' lol. This is another one of those cases where the Onion's probably just kind of staring at it and going, "Well, the hell we do with this?"

I sincerely hope one of these days they just start posting Fox headlines in some kinda post-ironic meta-reference. We have gone past the point of parodic representation into a circlejerk onto a cookie, and someone's gotta eat it.

[Maximum™]

I've been noisily concerned and posting about fascists here for most of the last decade, I've seen them get downplayed, people argue they should be debated and defeated through the self-evident badness of their ideas, and I've seen people say violence is not the answer.

Has not punching nazis worked so far?


Also: Jenna Ellis flipped, Cohen shared more devastating info in the case threatening to crash the orange turd and his businesses, Meadows is trying to thread the fine line of giving testimony as required without implicating himself further in Georgia, and seems to have failed.

[anewaname]

Watched Jenna Ellis plead guilty in court. She sat attentively giving yes's to all the questions with a pleasant smile on her face then
stands to read from paper and in ten words she has developed an uncertain waver in her voice and a couple of tears rolled onto her cheeks as she says that she relied on the more experienced lawyers to provide accurate information, then she sits and her face flipped back to the attentive and smiling mask... Absolutely remorseful and was totally duped by the bad lawyers and will never do it again, really...

Meadows has apparently been given immunity by Jack Smith.

[hector13]

I've been noisily concerned and posting about fascists here for most of the last decade, I've seen them get downplayed, people argue they should be debated and defeated through the self-evident badness of their ideas, and I've seen people say violence is not the answer.

Has not punching nazis worked so far?

I gave you the example Christian Picciolini who left a neo-Nazi movement and set up a charity trying to get other people out too.

Also, we can flip that coin over and ask if punching Nazis has worked. I’ve already cited an example of it not working with Richard Spencer, which had the lovely side effect of putting his face, words, and ideas in the media the world over.

[Maximum™]

But he's not an active nazi anymore, plus he's famous for being the most righteously punchable face ever getting punched!

Like yeah, do whatever you can to get them to knock it off, but recognize that this is inherently a violent movement based around the idea that it should be fine to hurt or kill certain groups of people based on what they look like or where they are from or whatever.

Nobody is born a nazi, nobody is forced to become a goosestepping fascist fucker, and they can easily quit.

I've spent years arguing about all sorts of shit with people online, and the most illogical beliefs are the least swayed by reason and rational discussion.

They can keep being nazis in private, but by existing openly in public they are actively threatening innocent people, making them feel unsafe to be openly fascist in public is the least the rest of us can do.

[MorleyDev]

"Punch a Nazi" is like step 5, after you've already deplatformed them, and generally kicked them out of the polite society first. Nazi in the pub? Kicked out of the pub. Nazi on TV? Kicked off TV. Nazis organizing a gang? Banned as the terrorist organization it is.

If they throw the first punch whilst being kicked out, then you make they don't get the last. Problem with starting with expousing "punch a Nazi" is you're skipping the importance of those first steps to stop the Nazis being let in the door in the first place.

[hector13]

But he's not an active nazi anymore, plus he's famous for being the most righteously punchable face ever getting punched!

Like yeah, do whatever you can to get them to knock it off, but recognize that this is inherently a violent movement based around the idea that it should be fine to hurt or kill certain groups of people based on what they look like or where they are from or whatever.

Nobody is born a nazi, nobody is forced to become a goosestepping fascist fucker, and they can easily quit.

I've spent years arguing about all sorts of shit with people online, and the most illogical beliefs are the least swayed by reason and rational discussion.

They can keep being nazis in private, but by existing openly in public they are actively threatening innocent people, making them feel unsafe to be openly fascist in public is the least the rest of us can do.

I don’t think you can draw a line between him getting punched and not being “active” anymore. He did help organize and speak at the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville later that year.

They need to feel like it’s safe not to be a Nazi too, by which I mean support has to be offered to them as they’re transitioning from being in a hate group to being in society. I can’t imagine the other Nazis will be happy with the “defection” and I’m sure they make that known to would be “traitors”.

Equally so it might be years of habits that are ingrained that need to be changed. That doesn’t just happen overnight. Fine, they can be quiet about it, that doesn’t mean it has gone away. It might also involve cutting out a huge portion of their social circle, which also is it easy, especially if it involves family or partners.

You’re not going to convince someone that’s worth the effort by clocking them.

"Punch a Nazi" is like step 5, after you've already deplatformed them, and generally kicked them out of the polite society first. Nazi in the pub? Kicked out of the pub. Nazi on TV? Kicked off TV. Nazis organizing a gang? Banned as the terrorist organization it is.

If they throw the first punch whilst being kicked out, then you make they don't get the last. Problem with starting with expousing "punch a Nazi" is you're skipping the importance of those first steps to stop the Nazis being let in the door in the first place.

On the one hand yeah that’s going to stop the message getting around,  but on the other, where are they going to go if they’ve been ostracized by “polite society”? Probably straight into the arms of hate groups who offer them acceptance and the like.

Like, even banning groups doesn’t necessarily work that well. The actual Nazis were banned after Hitler got arrested, so they just changed the name until Hitler convinced the Bavarian authorities to unban them. There’s also been some recent proscribed groups in the UK (within the last 5 years or so I think) just changing their name to get around bans, though that generally gets found out and prosecuted.

[MrRoboto75]

Most young men fall into far-right because the far-right actually pretends to give a shit about them, meanwhile the left can barely conceive of young white men having problems these days, if not actively dislike them.

Like it's practically uncontested for the right.

[Ziusudra]

Republicans nominate Mike Johnson for House speaker after Emmer’s withdrawal, desperate to end chaos

[MorleyDev]

On the one hand yeah that’s going to stop the message getting around,  but on the other, where are they going to go if they’ve been ostracized by “polite society”? Probably straight into the arms of hate groups who offer them acceptance and the like.

So? Punch or Ostracize, either way this isn't about 'fixing' them, it's about containment. Preventing the spread of a harmful meme.

[hector13]

On the one hand yeah that’s going to stop the message getting around,  but on the other, where are they going to go if they’ve been ostracized by “polite society”? Probably straight into the arms of hate groups who offer them acceptance and the like.

So? Punch or Ostracize, either way this isn't about 'fixing' them, it's about containment. Preventing the spread of a harmful meme.

I’m not sure I get how swelling the ranks of hate groups is meant to stop the spread of hateful messages?

[MorleyDev]

I’m not sure I get how swelling the ranks of hate groups is meant to stop the spread of hateful messages?

Most people when they see their ideas aren't shared by their those they consider peers tend to abandon those ideas before they fully take root. Nazis not being tolerated results in less people becoming Nazis. By the time they have taken root, these people are already well on the path to joining the hate group anyway so it's too late.

If their ideas spread less, then that's a net loss to the hate groups.

Plus if they fall into a banned hate group then they can get arrested, then they can get whatever treatment/therapy in jail and that can be about fixing them (one of many reasons Prison Reforms are needed).