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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4434199 times)

Dostoevsky

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51735 on: October 06, 2023, 12:13:18 pm »

Just for a point of clarity since I imagine you are both foreigners, you're speaking of the "House of Representatives" - both that and the Senate make up Congress together.

My mention of "congress" there was the fact that the number of seats is established by statute, which has to pass both chambers. The House can't do that sort of thing on its own.


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/biden-administration-waives-federal-laws-allow-border-wall-constructio-rcna118959
There is presently an acute and immediate need to construct physical barriers and
roads in the vicinity of the border of the United States in order to prevent unlawful entries into
the United States in the project areas pursuant to sections 102(a) and 102(b) of IIRIRA.

Document from the same Mayorkas. He's lying. The Biden administration is lying. And when they're called out on their lies, they send out the press secretary to deflect, gaslight, and lie some more.

Kind of hard to claim you were forced to do something when you waive environmental laws to avoid getting slowed down by litigation.

So it's more complicated than this.

In the FY2019, FY2020, and FY2021 omnibus appropriations bills congress set aside funding for a border wall. In FY2019 this includes $1.375 billion for "the construction of primary pedestrian fencing, including levee pedestrian, in the Rio Grande Valley Sector." In FYF2020 and as incorporated in FY2021 this includes the same amount of money "for construction of a barrier system along the southwest border." Now obviously all of these fiscal years are old - we just entered FY2024 after all.

By default (i.e. unless otherwise explicitly designated, which is quite rare) appropriations bills only appropriate for a single year... however despite the reputation it's not always easy for a government agency to spend money, and it's pretty common for there to be unspent funds at the end of a given year. These funds are not automatically forfeited, probably to discourage some of the 'use it or lose it' mentality you see in similar situations in other institutions, though congress will often look to 'clawing back' unspent funds to pay for some other priority.

When Biden became president one of his first Executive Orders was (among other things) an indefinite pause on using those funds, with certain exceptions and "to the extent permitted by law." It then directs DOD and DHS to "develop a plan for the redirection of funds concerning the southern border wall, as appropriate and consistent with applicable law."

Basically, the Executive Branch is ideally supposed to be executing the law faithfully as written (obviously defining this is hard, and pretty much every president has tried to stretch the limits of this), so they ought to to spend money that congress says should be spent. Alternatively framed, refusing to spend the money could be interpreted as a line item veto, which is unconstitutional per Supreme Court ruling. So they can't just say 'nope', but they can look into alternative methods that meet the letter of the law, etc. etc.

Later that year, the GAO (Government Accountability Office) issued an opinion noting that most of the FY2019 and FY2020 money has already been obligated, FY2021 is still pretty much unobligated, but that the delays are legal in part because they are not "impoundments." GAO suggested congress maybe look into some oversight (while GAO issues opinions, they don't really have the force of law or much enforcement ability in general).

As one might imagine some states (among others) filed a lawsuit seeking to compel expenditure of the money; these cases have made their way through the courts at a glacial pace, with the most recent decision (back in June of this year) saying they do in fact have standing given new S.Ct. precedent created during the course of the lawsuit.

So, in short, the current question on legality of the 'indefinite pause' was more or less unsettled. The Biden Administration hasn't yet been forced to spend the money, though given more time it's possible they would have been, especially with the current Supreme Court.

For what it's worth, the full FR quote:

Quote
The United States Border Patrol's (Border Patrol) Rio Grande Valley Sector is an area of “high illegal entry.” As of early August 2023, Border Patrol had encountered over 245,000 such entrants attempting to enter the United States between ports of entry in the Rio Grande Valley Sector in Fiscal Year 2023.

Therefore, I must use my authority under section 102 of IIRIRA to install additional physical barriers and roads in the Rio Grande Valley Sector. Therefore, DHS will take immediate action to construct barriers and roads. Construction will be funded by a fiscal year 2019 appropriation through which Congress appropriated funds for the construction border barrier in the Rio Grande Valley, and DHS is required to use those funds for their appropriated purpose. This project is consistent with DHS's plan to fulfill the requirements of President Biden's Proclamation (Proclamation No. 10142, 86 FR 7225 (Jan. 20, 2021)), which ended the diversion of funds for border wall from military projects or other sources while calling for the expenditure of any funds Congress appropriated for barrier construction consistent with their appropriated purpose. The areas in the vicinity of the border within which such construction will occur are more specifically described in Section 2 below. Such areas are not located within any of the areas identified in section 231 of title II of division A of the Fiscal Year 2019 DHS Appropriations Act.

SeePublic Law 116–6, Div. A, Title II, sec. 231.

Basically saying 'there's a need, but we also have to spend this money'. So it's a fig leaf, but the leaf does have some mass to it.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 12:50:36 pm by Dostoevsky »
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51736 on: October 06, 2023, 01:15:36 pm »

But where's the "lie" in his statement?  The funds are allocated and they can't free them without Congress, right?

"We need a wall/barrier." -> "We don't need a wall/barrier." Claim both and you're automatically lying about one.

"Free them" implies the allocated money exists and is tied up somewhere before it is spent, which isn't entirely the case. What Biden is actually trying to do here is make sure a future GOP president doesn't have access to the funds the GOP managed to get approved (which they managed by negotiating with Dems and allowing them to spend on their own priorities.) Obviously the GOP's answer to that is "fuck no".

Let's be real, this is a legacy of Trump which the Biden administration has been stalling.  They could have done more to facilitate immigration, but "He's just like the Republicans" is an actual lie.

So why didn't he stall using the environmental regulations? At least until after the next election? Could it be that the situation has become untenable, and that blaming the previous admin 3 years into your own doesn't fly any more? That he thinks he can maintain his 2020 Arizona and New Mexico voters by looking tough on the border, while pretending he had no choice to the liberal base? I can only speculate, but it's clear he didn't care enough to resist it. (Maybe he thought he was building more walls around his own beach house?)

Obviously they're not just like the Republicans, or I might be at risk of voicing some modicum of support on policies. The thing is that Biden (and subsequently his administration) lies just as much, if not more, than other politicians:
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?category=&ruling=false&speaker=joe-biden

Frankly, he's George Santos tier for all the shit he makes up about his past and family, including plagiarizing Neil Kinnock's history by claiming his family worked in coal mines. Plagiarizing speeches wasn't enough, apparently. Who the hell does that? Not even Trump?

People deserve representation, states do not.

Most of the population doesn't know or care about where their food comes from until an issue occurs. Given the food tends to come from rural areas, it's unwise to disregard the specific concerns of regions of people. The EC gives a reasonable weighting system here. It's mainly the winner-take-all system used by states that skews things.

It's open partisan fuckery tied to protecting slavery, and the civil war should have rendered it obsolete.

John Bell beat Abraham Lincoln in the popular vote, just FYI. In his campaign, Bell argued that "secession was unnecessary since the Constitution protected slavery", so...

(and if someone pretends to be ignorant of the Southern Strategy and the resulting party shift, as they always do, I'm not gonna dignify it with a response)

Yes, the resulting party shift that brought us racist GOP presidents like Woodrow Wilson and FDR. Biden reaching across the aisle to have Republican former Klansman Senator Robert Byrd as his mentor.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 01:48:41 pm by Bumber »
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51737 on: October 06, 2023, 01:46:47 pm »

Thinking that the electoral college is intended to "protect slavery" is the dumbest possible take. Anyone who reads primary sources can tell that is literally the exact opposite of its purpose.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51738 on: October 06, 2023, 01:55:55 pm »

States rights for what?
States rights for what, MS?

Frankly, he's George Santos tier for all the shit he makes up about his past and family, including plagiarizing Neil Kinnock's history by claiming his family worked in coal mines. Plagiarizing speeches wasn't enough, apparently. Who the hell does that? Not even Trump?
He *did* stall, and yes the money is allocated by congress.  But those facts are inconvenient, hence yet another wandering screed about how you don't like Biden.  I don't like Biden either, but I'm more interested in real policy than conspiracies and beach houses.

Maybe check Dostoevsky's much more nuanced and researched take?  There's criticism of Biden in it, so maybe you won't reject it out of hand and try to change the subject!
People deserve representation, states do not.

Most of the population doesn't know or care about where their food comes from until an issue occurs. Given the food tends to come from rural areas, it's unwise to disregard the specific concerns of regions of people. The EC gives a reasonable weighting system here. It's mainly the winner-take-all system used by states that skews things.
Those farmers deserve rights.  Not their states.  The EC does literally nothing to protect them.

Republicans screw over their base even harder than the Democrats do, by opposing labor rights and sending jobs overseas.  But they spin a good yarn about the evil city folk, or the foreigners, or the gays, or whatever.  Always another scapegoat as they laugh to the bank.

Even Republican voters aren't falling for it anymore, which is where this faux populist movement in the Republican party came from.  Dumbass neocons relied on the same scapegoats for too long, and now people are demanding action (aka fascist violence against minorities).
[snip]
(and if someone pretends to be ignorant of the Southern Strategy and the resulting party shift, as they always do, I'm not gonna dignify it with a response)
[snip]
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She/they
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Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Schmaven

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51739 on: October 06, 2023, 07:28:10 pm »

With how much democrats/liberals hate republicans/conservatives, and visa versa, I can only imagine how the Chinese, Russians, etc. must feel toward Americans.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51740 on: October 06, 2023, 08:26:29 pm »

States rights for what?
States rights for what, MS?
Bro, read a book: states' rights to, in fact, ban the slave trade after 1808 (a time limit written into the Constitution), originally. At the founding, the slave states didn't care about states' rights because they were the largest by population, especially Virginia; the smaller northern states wanted protection against them, not the other way around. "States' rights" didn't become a Southern slogan until the industrial revolution made the north the rich and powerful side. Virtually every major compromise that went into the Constitution centred around this - convincing the southern states to join while preserving the option for the northern states eventually to ban slavery nationwide... which the southern states were largely willing to accept because, at the time (namely, before the invention of the cotton gin, four years later), the prevailing assumption in the educated classes was that slavery was a moribund institution that would eventually come to a natural end.

Imagine not knowing this!
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51741 on: October 06, 2023, 09:43:22 pm »

Thinking that the electoral college is intended to "protect slavery" is the dumbest possible take. Anyone who reads primary sources can tell that is literally the exact opposite of its purpose.
States rights for what?
States rights for what, MS?
Bro, read a book: states' rights to, in fact, ban the slave trade after 1808 (a time limit written into the Constitution), originally. At the founding, the slave states didn't care about states' rights because they were the largest by population, especially Virginia; the smaller northern states wanted protection against them, not the other way around. "States' rights" didn't become a Southern slogan until the industrial revolution made the north the rich and powerful side. Virtually every major compromise that went into the Constitution centred around this - convincing the southern states to join while preserving the option for the northern states eventually to ban slavery nationwide... which the southern states were largely willing to accept because, at the time (namely, before the invention of the cotton gin, four years later), the prevailing assumption in the educated classes was that slavery was a moribund institution that would eventually come to a natural end.

Imagine not knowing this!
And in your mind, this means that the purpose of the electoral college was to allow the banning of the slave trade?  Okay sis.

Imagine commenting on the civil war with "thank our bearded gods for inventing the Electoral College to free the slaves.  Behold the sequence of events they definitely orchestrated, such that eventually no one would own slaves as they did!"
Why, that would merit a silly meme response instead of a single moment's wasted thought.

And if such a silly response was met with a scathing personal attack that utterly dodged the point, instead pushing some trite Originalist dogma?  Surely the Founders planned for that too, in their unfathomable wisdom.
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51742 on: October 06, 2023, 10:14:21 pm »

Dude, there's... literally firsthand documentation of this. The Constitution contains a line explicitly affirming that Congress has the power to ban the slave trade after the year 1808, and we know about the debate and compromise that went into making that happen. It's impossible to argue that the Constitutional Congress didn't, indeed, orchestrate the eventual banning of the slave trade, because it's in the text. You can just... read it, dude. I mean, it's fine if you prefer being smugly ignorant, but history is there if you want it.

In fact, it isn't even an "Originalist" expression of the unfathomable wisdom of the "Founders", given that, because of the invention of the cotton gin, attitudes changed and it didn't happen the way they wanted it to.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 10:16:25 pm by Maximum Spin »
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51743 on: October 06, 2023, 10:59:45 pm »

Isn’t there a lot of the constitution that can be read as pro-slavery as well as anti-slavery?

Equally so, the cotton gin only made processing cotton easier. The resulting boom in the textile industry meant an increase in demand for cotton, the cultivation of which meant slavery wasn’t really going to go away soon.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51744 on: October 06, 2023, 11:04:14 pm »

Isn’t there a lot of the constitution that can be read as pro-slavery as well as anti-slavery?
Like I said, it's a series of compromises. However, the main thrust of the compromises is to limit the power of the slave states, not to increase it - so there's a time limit before Congress can ban the slave trade, but it's still affirmatively able to do so at that point when it didn't have to have the power at all, or slave owners are allowed to count the slave population for purposes of representation in Congress (even though they don't get to vote, effectively multiplying the slaveowners' votes), but only at a ratio of 3:5.

Quote
Equally so, the cotton gin only made processing cotton easier. The resulting boom in the textile industry meant an increase in demand for cotton, the cultivation of which meant slavery wasn’t really going to go away soon.
Right, that's the point I was making: the invention of the cotton gin ended the previous paradigm of assuming that slavery was becoming unprofitable.
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Laterigrade

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51745 on: October 06, 2023, 11:21:03 pm »

Frankly, he's George Santos tier for all the shit he makes up about his past and family, including plagiarizing Neil Kinnock's history by claiming his family worked in coal mines. Plagiarizing speeches wasn't enough, apparently. Who the hell does that? Not even Trump?
All political stances aside, this is hilarious. Biden sounds like me when I’m talking to people at a party, with the amount and falsity of his half-truth anecdotes.

The Speaker of the House is 2nd in line to the presidency if something horrible were to happen.
Also, this sounds terrible. Why and to what degree does it work like that?
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and the quadriplegic toothless vampire killed me effortlessly after that
bool IsARealBoy = false
dropping clothes to pick up armor and then dropping armor to pick up clothes like some sort of cyclical forever-striptease
if a year passes, add one to age; social experiment

Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51746 on: October 06, 2023, 11:27:37 pm »

Also, this sounds terrible. Why and to what degree does it work like that?
Why is that terrible? It's expected that there has to be a line of succession, and Congress decided to place its own leaders next in line after the Constitutionally-designated VP. The Speaker of the House is 3rd and the President pro tempore of the Senate is 4th. If somehow, you managed to kill the VP and President at once, then the Speaker, if surviving (and existent), would act as (but not become) President.
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51747 on: October 06, 2023, 11:58:06 pm »

Isn’t there a lot of the constitution that can be read as pro-slavery as well as anti-slavery?
Like I said, it's a series of compromises. However, the main thrust of the compromises is to limit the power of the slave states, not to increase it - so there's a time limit before Congress can ban the slave trade, but it's still affirmatively able to do so at that point when it didn't have to have the power at all, or slave owners are allowed to count the slave population for purposes of representation in Congress (even though they don't get to vote, effectively multiplying the slaveowners' votes), but only at a ratio of 3:5.

Quote
Equally so, the cotton gin only made processing cotton easier. The resulting boom in the textile industry meant an increase in demand for cotton, the cultivation of which meant slavery wasn’t really going to go away soon.
Right, that's the point I was making: the invention of the cotton gin ended the previous paradigm of assuming that slavery was becoming unprofitable.

Ah right, just me misinterpreting what you were saying. I thought you meant the cotton gin made it easier to abolish slavery, which was a silly interpretation.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51748 on: October 07, 2023, 12:26:05 am »

Ah right, just me misinterpreting what you were saying. I thought you meant the cotton gin made it easier to abolish slavery, which was a silly interpretation.
Oh, I see. Right, my understanding is that the cotton gin pretty much dashed the hopes of the educated classes of the time that the (at the time) terrible expense ratio of slavery would make it die quietly and stop causing political tension.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #51749 on: October 07, 2023, 12:28:41 am »

Per my understanding, it was kind of a Gatling gun moment. A labor-saving device in theory would reduce the amount required to sustain a given industry, and that was presumably the intent behind it (I'd need to check sources to confirm if this was ever actually on the inventor's mind though).

Then rich people gotta rich people and go "what if we use this to do more slavery but more profitably" and oops cotton is no longer a giant pain in the ass to utilize en masse so it becomes a cash crop.
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On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.
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