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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4449571 times)

alway

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50265 on: January 07, 2023, 10:07:22 pm »

does anyone here have any recommendations for charities/organizations to give to?

...

I repeatedly find myself in spaces with many Americans, queer people, and queer American people.
That second part is the answer to the first part. Organizations providing aid are generally at best a crude replacement for knowing the people in need and providing what they need. If you know people, pay attention to their needs, and provide for those where you can. This isn't just a trans thing ofc; this is the basis on which real community is built. But it is especially critical where people you know have unmet needs that could destroy their life in the short to medium term. Yeah, it's more work than just donating to some org once a year, but it's the sort of work which makes everyone more well off.

To put this in a way that you might here Conservatives speak: "How can a person know they want to be the opposite gender, when they haven't even finished experiencing their own yet?"
The fucked up thing is I've heard that one more than once from absolute vile sacks of shit that were recommending LGBT folks be raped into cis conformity. Not metaphorically raped, either, but an explicit "you have to be this actually fucked to have experienced your gender, consent be damned" type of deal. It's not a line of thought you'd find particularly sympathetic, I don't think.
Likewise, this same fash argument is being used to justify the under 26 bans, as well as the under 35 bans which are being lobbied for by the exact same fash lobby groups responsible for the under 18 bills, and which we will probably see within the next year. I'd be willing to bet that if those gain traction, we will next see lobbying about how it is unnatural to have high hormone levels late in life, and thus those over 40 should be banned from transitioning.

The real reason for bans on puberty blockers, which delay puberty as part of gender affirming medical care for minors, is specifically because going through the wrong puberty does some irreversible things, and those things are exactly what fash use as part of their eliminationist campaign against trans people. We're downright boring to everybody when trans women look and physiologically behave exactly like any other woman due to not undergoing the wrong puberty. Trans women in sports? Every argument is based on a mix of nonsense and changes induced by a testosterone puberty. Portraying trans women as being deep voiced hairy men? Once again, depending on puberty based changes. Every. Single. Fascist campaign seeking to exterminate transgender people from public life is targetted specifically on the features acquired during puberty, and so it is critical for their eliminationist agenda that those traits are universal across all trans people now and forever, lest everyone else simply lose interest in their lies.

Additionally, do you know what it takes to undo that unwanted puberty's effects? In the case of trans men, it's an entire surgical reconstruction for top surgery. For trans women, it may range from no surgical intervention to several (FFS, BA, and/or tracheal shave); years of voice training to get anything approaching a voice they like, and years of painful and expensive electrolysis or other hair removal. That shits expensive; likely 5 figures to partially undo a thing you casually propose inflicting on a demographic because you believe that a 1% regret rate is too high???  Kindly fuck off with that.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 10:19:16 pm by alway »
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EuchreJack

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50266 on: January 07, 2023, 10:26:27 pm »

So what happens if a couple that wanted a boy but got a cis girl decides their child would be better off as a boy?

alway

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50267 on: January 07, 2023, 11:00:30 pm »

How many trans lives is a cis life worth to you? On a scale ranging from 100 to 'all of them,' of course, given the known regret rate isn't good enough for you.
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Vector

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50268 on: January 07, 2023, 11:17:55 pm »

OK, let's go with the thought experiment. So little Ciserella is born AFAB and given a boy's name and they bribe the doctor to put an M on her birth certificate even though that's not legal, she's made to wear boy's clothes and indulge in boy's pasttimes. Luckily because we're living in pro-trans world they can't demand a surgical intervention on her newborn genitals.

Ciserella doesn't ever see or understand that her privates match what she feels inside and that they match the way that most people with those privates feel, because Ciserella's parents isolate her from birth. Instead Ciserella is shamed for her unmanly behavior by her relatives and discouraged from spending time with other girls.

At school Ciserella's teachers, however, encourage Ciserella from a young age to express herself in the way that she likes and to read books that she likes. It is ok to be a girl even though she started life being told that she was a boy, and in fact another boy at the school also turns out to be a girl partway through kindergarten. She is allowed to sit at the "girls table" and do "girl activities" even though she looks like a boy. Ciserella's parents are encouraged from an early age to allow her gender exploration and other parents enforce Ciserella's right to choose her own activities and appearance. Ciserella never has a bathroom accident at school and she never plays doctor with other kids so no one learns of her family's deception. Maybe she is worried that if somebody sees her naked, they will find out that she is a boy.

She continues to tell her teachers that she believes she is a girl and is allowed to use girls locker rooms and girls bathrooms at school without comment. Ciserella cries every time her parents cut her hair short. When she is interested in bras, she is made fun of and told that boys have to wear boy underwear and girls have to wear girl underwear. Ciserella becomes withdrawn, angry, and resentful. Her teachers begin to suspect that she is being abused but do not have concrete evidence, because when her family shows up at parent-teacher conferences, any reference to Ciserella's transgender behavior is greeted with a tight smile and silence. Her teachers pass around information when discussing about "students of concern" and make sure that Ciserella has plenty of opportunities to express herself. The transgender teachers at the elementary school develop an ad hoc support system for Ciserella and make sure that she has food and other things that she needs, because they know that parents of transgender children can attempt to violently punish them. They are watching her for bruises and neglect. They do not have to report Ciserella's trans behavior to her unsafe parents or to CPS just for being trans, and they cannot be sued for hiding that she is trans.

Around fifth grade she learns explicitly that in typical development girls have "innies" and boys have "outies," and she is very confused, because she has an innie but her parents have told her over and over again that she is a boy. She writes an essay about this for class, no wait she doesn't do that because the story would end. Rewind! Ciserella also learns explicitly about trans people and learns that she is what you would call "trans," because her parents think she is a boy and she knows that she is a girl. In Ciserella's world it is ok to be trans and your parents should not force you to have some gender or another. Ciserella even has a few nonbinary classmates now. Ciserella stays silent but is starting to suspect that something is very wrong.

When her parents try to put her on puberty blockers, which is only allowed after the onset of puberty, the doctors ask her about her experiences of puberty so far, and about whether she wants to take medication that will make her look more like a boy, or whether she wants to continue the way she is now. They explain that "doing nothing" will make her look like most of her average female classmates at her school. Ciserella explains that she is sure she wants to go through female puberty.

The doctors, apparently in some backwards insane world of trans supremacy where the transes have taken over the entire world and also forgotten everything about what it's like to be trans, explain to Ciserella that she isn't old enough to make that choice and that she couldn't possibly be cis despite all the evidence of her parents trying to force her to be trans, and they put Ciserella on puberty blockers against her will. Ciserella's parents force her to take the blockers somehow without leaving marks. Maybe they humiliate her in a way that Ciserella is afraid to talk about.

Ciserella complains to her female friends and at the GSA club that she is an AFAB trans girl who is being mistreated because she is not being allowed to control her puberty. Ciserella wants to grow up to be a woman, not a man. She doesn't want to take T shots and she doesn't want to grow a beard. She doesn't participate in sports or other group activities

Her teacher, a mandated reporter who somehow doesn't notice that her parents describe Ciserella as a boy but Ciserella has notes in her school file explaining her preferred name and pronouns, has a transition closet at school where Ciserella can don female clothing every day and participate as her chosen gender at school. In the long period when Ciserella would take puberty blockers as a trans child, being from 12 to 16, as she becomes increasingly aggravated with her parents' control, she continues to live the life of a boy at home and a girl at school. Somehow nobody notices what is happening and no one says anything to her parents and her parents never take an action so violent that it ends up on the CPS radar.

Ciserella understands eventually that her parents are abusive and when it's time to go in at age 16 to get her prescription for T, she asks to talk to the doctor alone. Her parents become visibly angry, which is the cue for the nurse to usher them out. She explains everything to the doctor and doesn't get the prescription for T. This is a weird world in which parents who are known to be abusive to their trans children experience no consequences, so we're going to assume that Ciserella's parents kick her out of the house now after giving her a beating and telling her that she's dead to them.

Ciserella has a bad couple of years where she has to use the support networks of her other trans friends, but her teachers and community support for young trans homeless people help her out. Because Ciserella is not visibly trans, nor is she trans even with an inspection of her physical body, she can even receive help from Christian institutions like the Salvation Army and she learns that even though she is a woman of trans experience, she is really just like her cis female classmates in every meaningful way (and in a lot of ways that don't really matter, too).

She couch-surfs for a while among her trans friends from school, whose parents all detest Ciserella's family. Her trans teachers go above and beyond paying for Ciserella's basic needs out of their salaries, and helping her to access assistance. The GSA comes together and helps her get a dress for prom so that she can go as a girl. People at school who have known her for a long time do still occasionally make mistakes with her deadname or pronouns, but in general she is flourishing and she is proud of herself.

Looking back on her life, in her thirties, Ciserella is confused as to why her parents went to all that expense, heartbreak, and annoyance when the school system was going to support her gender exploration anyway. And why had people ever hated trans people so much, the very people who helped her out and helped her to understand that deep down, she was really--cis?

She is unusually skilled in a few male hobbies that she was forced to adopt, doesn't mind comfortable shoes, and hangs out with the other later-transitioning trans girls. It isn't really that bad of a life.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50269 on: January 08, 2023, 12:12:43 am »

I know that this is going to be an unpopular option, but hey, AmeriPol thread.

So, I sorta think that transitioning should wait until the person is 18.  Puberty really fucks with a person's hormones.
I mean, how can a person be sure of their gender identity before they turn 18? They're not even sure of their own body until puberty subsides!

To put this in a way that you might here Conservatives speak: "How can a person know they want to be the opposite gender, when they haven't even finished experiencing their own yet?"

I'll end with the following criticism of the currently proposed laws: Some kids in puberty might NEED that hormone trainwreck to be lessened, and it may be they NEED hormonal balancing before 18. So they're overbroad.

EuchreJack asked a polite question that is completely reasonable from those who don't know how being trans works. The talk of rape or insinuating they don't value trans lives as much as cis lives is entirely uncalled for. Especially considering they didn't talk about enforcing irreversible physiological puberty but instead delaying the choice until later (on puberty blockers in the meantime I assume).

I understand it is frustrating to keep hearing "what if they regret it when they're older?" but they aren't out to cause harm.
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alway

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50270 on: January 08, 2023, 12:33:32 am »

That specifically says, until puberty subsides; or in other words, after. That very much is not puberty blockers, and very much is enforcing unwanted physical changes on transgender people, against the advice of every major medical body.
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Vector

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50271 on: January 08, 2023, 01:11:27 am »

The talk of rape or insinuating they don't value trans lives as much as cis lives is entirely uncalled for.

The suppression of minorities can only happen through killing history, and through teaching the majority that others are simply worth less or that their needs aren't as important. One of the ways in which we treat this is through media, where we show trans characters not happy, but repeatedly being raped and murdered, as part of making fiction gritty and "realistic." We give regretful detransitioners the world's biggest microphones and trans elders none. We present token tragic trans people who seem to always be alone, rejected, and without families. We don't tell stories of survival.

But these images are not reality. They provide our youth with an image of endless death and show them that they are unloved, outmatched, and have no future. That mirror has to have something other than a skeleton in it.

At the same time, we're talking about genocide at this point, not a classroom debate. You need to understand that the line of thinking that we're talking about is one that we've seen before; it's the previous norm; it's not new or novel. We know what happens under the laws being proposed because it already has happened within living memory. The adults alive now were, for the most part, never presented with the option to live as themselves. We want better for our children.

Discussion of corrective rape isn't some kind of "uncalled for" rhetorical move, nor is reminding conversationalists of the now well-loved 41% suicide attempt statistic (a statistic that vanishes after trans people legally gain control over our bodies and lives, by the way, which is why we want minors to have access to transition care). This is not a thought experiment. We are talking about a hidden, forgotten, and suppressed truth, an abandoned history. At the very least we have to be able to talk about things that have happened to us and our friends.

What is being offered is not "clean," "normal," "fair," or "nice." What is being offered, wearing reasonable clothing, is going to be a bloodbath.

What I hope my story illustrated is that EuchreJack's question, which is frequently presented at this point as a conservative gotcha, would represent a rarer, less likely, and less violent form of abuse if protections of trans youth were in place, than that usually and overwhelmingly experienced by trans people today and what is promised by current legislation.

How polite would you be after the tenth time hearing the same question? Twentieth? Hundredth? As the hand of the law bears down and tries to wipe you out of existence? After dozens of years of the same? Livelihoods threatened, hangouts and hospitals threatened with bombs, and no respite in sight?

Alway is in the single most transphobic state in the country, and has a right to be angry...
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JoshuaFH

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50272 on: January 08, 2023, 01:48:06 am »

-
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alway

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50273 on: January 08, 2023, 02:06:25 am »

Hehe, only for the next few days, then I never have to step foot here again. Like every other trans person I know here, I'm working on leaving this state before it gets worse. Though I'm not sure I can call it the worst state for trans people; like, sure, the right wing government is making lists of names of trans people, they've forcibly detransitioned trans kids, have made CPS investigate the families of trans kids in preparation for ripping apart loving families, and have a new bill to make gender non-conforming presentation illegal in many public places, but several other states are making for tough competition for the title of "worst state for trans people".
Here's a bunch more just today! https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/states-target-transgender-health-care-in-first-bills-of-2023/
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Micro102

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50274 on: January 08, 2023, 04:22:55 am »

So what happens if a couple that wanted a boy but got a cis girl decides their child would be better off as a boy?

You are going to have to add a little more than that. If throwing out a "what if" was enough of a reason to not allow something, literally everything would not be allowed. We have data on % of trans people in the population and their suicidality rates. We don't have data on "parents who wanted a boy but didn't get an abortion but then thought to have them transition and managed to trick psychologists and doctors until the child was much older and still managed to get them to transition to a boy"...
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50275 on: January 08, 2023, 07:46:05 am »

I think there are several more fundamental underlying things to consider.

First: it's clear that most people (e.g., in the broad social sense, not necessarily here) are not using 'treat others as you'd want to be treated' as one of the highest guiding principles of human interaction.

Second: language does matter. Regardless of the topic - just because something is unwanted doesn't permit the conclusion that it's wrong.  That is - personal (or cultural) preference is orthogonal to ontological "rightness" or "wrongness."

Third: Why is "feeling good" or "getting what I want" raised to such a high priority? This covers all sides of a controversy - all sides "want the world to be comfortable in the way they want to be comfortable". This links the first and second observations: some group doesn't like something or doesn't want it (or does like something and wants it), and then extends that to some moral quality of "wrongness" or "rightness" to justify measures taken to bring that into being, regardless of how that puts others or self first.

So in these conversations my plea is: put others first, don't assume right/wrong, and put others first. Or even more extremely - put self last; with the caveat that this does not mean "put yourself in a position to be abused".
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KittyTac

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50276 on: January 08, 2023, 08:53:53 am »

I trust Euchre enough to not consider that a straight up dogwhistle, but it still gives me bad vibes. :-\

Also hello AmeriPol, am back. With a somewhat lefter ideology.
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Madman198237

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50277 on: January 08, 2023, 12:05:30 pm »

So what happens if a couple that wanted a boy but got a cis girl decides their child would be better off as a boy?

Ultimately what needs to happen there is actual management of child abuse, since there's no way you could argue that that ISN'T (emotional and possibly accompanied by physical) child abuse, which is already covered by the law. It's already illegal, in short, so why worry about it happening more? There's already a law that specifically says "don't abuse your kids", making it illegal in more laws doesn't actually make it any more illegal. Well, ok, maybe if said hypothetical new law imposes harsher penalties, but that's not the issue at hand.
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EuchreJack

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50278 on: January 09, 2023, 12:02:26 am »

Thanks Vector, I'm just trying to feel out the Conservative crap that I routinely hear.  I appreciate the story.  You might want to be careful with acronyms, since people don't HAVE to look them up, and might just stop listening.

I kinda wish people would stop thinking CPS can do anything. As a State Funded and State Maintained Organization, they're basically teachers, with all the governmental interference, regulations, and constant public backlash that goes with that.

I know that this is going to be an unpopular option, but hey, AmeriPol thread.

So, I sorta think that transitioning should wait until the person is 18.  Puberty really fucks with a person's hormones.
I mean, how can a person be sure of their gender identity before they turn 18? They're not even sure of their own body until puberty subsides!

To put this in a way that you might here Conservatives speak: "How can a person know they want to be the opposite gender, when they haven't even finished experiencing their own yet?"

I'll end with the following criticism of the currently proposed laws: Some kids in puberty might NEED that hormone trainwreck to be lessened, and it may be they NEED hormonal balancing before 18. So they're overbroad.

EuchreJack asked a polite question that is completely reasonable from those who don't know how being trans works. The talk of rape or insinuating they don't value trans lives as much as cis lives is entirely uncalled for. Especially considering they didn't talk about enforcing irreversible physiological puberty but instead delaying the choice until later (on puberty blockers in the meantime I assume).

I understand it is frustrating to keep hearing "what if they regret it when they're older?" but they aren't out to cause harm.

@bloop_bleep: The talk of rape is extreme but valid. I had considered that response even as I was writing my question.

Alright, sorry folks for the tough questions, but I just wanted to know. I figured having those questions unanswered wasn't doing me any good.

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #50279 on: January 09, 2023, 05:00:26 am »


How polite would you be after the tenth time hearing the same question?

Depends if it is the same person asking it 10 times, or 10 different people asking it.
There is a thing called being uninformed. And on this topic, there are a whole lot of the latter still waiting to be enlightenend on the subject.

And even though it might become annoying having to explain the same thing a hundred times, my grandma used to say "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar".
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