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[Micro102]

Don't those anti-trans bills also aim to punish people who do things that are legal in other states? Not only is that unconstitutional, but you don't hear an uproar from the "state's rights" people. A pretty clear reinforcement that these people don't care about the constitution or state's rights. It's always just an excuse to defend their politicians.

[McTraveller]

The solution to the sports argument should be that they change from gender-based bracketing to "weight-class" bracketing.  I was barely competitive in some sports I tried because I was only "average" height - a 5 foot-7 inch lightweight is not well matched in many sports against 6 foot-4 inch heavyweights.  Larger people have greater reach, more mass, and on average higher base strength just due to size.  Yes smaller folks tend to be more agile, but most "in the media" physical activities are strength/size biased rather than agility biased.  Maybe pole vaulting and high jump perhaps are easier for shorter people since they have less body to clear the bar?

Wrestling and boxing already have weight classes, so it's not a "new" concept.

So for running you could have brackets based on hip-to-heel height (all else equal, someone with longer legs is going to have an advantage over someone with shorter legs - fewer strides required to cover a given distance).

For basketball you could have an "under 6 foot" league and an "over 6 foot" league.  (Yes I know there are some very successful "short" basketball players, but in general it's a sport heavily biased to taller players).

Swimming: again, a taller person is going to have a slight advantage than a shorter, because just in extending your body you have less distance to cover.  (Or maybe normalize all races to multiples of body length, rather than absolute distance?  Hah that would be fun!)

[Starver]

The main anti-trans(-woman!) argument is not just height, but the decade(s) of testosterone flooding the system (prior to any blockers/etc) pre-toning the body in the way that a 'normal' woman has never had happen to them. Which is why "current hormone levels", or perhaps consistently over the last N seasons since transitioning, isn't universally accepted as good enough.

(Though the truth is that at elite levels of sport, the elite athletes of all stripes are already exceptions, because psychology and training are no good without an also-exceptional basic metabolism. And vice-versa. If I transitioned, by any degree from self-declaration upwards, I would be fairly certainly uncompetitive against world-class women in whatever chosen sports they'd strived for and experienced and that I hadn't. Even matched by age/height/BMI, if you could do that. Together with various impacts forced upon the transitionee's body, it's not so clear how much birth (or, perhaps more significantly, adolescence) gender factors in. Extraordinary athletes are already extraordinary, and not automatically ranked as females all outcompeted by males, even before trans issues creep in.)

[Il Palazzo]

Maybe pole vaulting and high jump perhaps are easier for shorter people since they have less body to clear the bar?

Judging by the general appearance of the competitors, I suspect height helps a lot. They're almost invariably tall lanky fuckers. Maybe it's about longer limbs or higher centre of mass, I don't know.

And I agree with Starver - there's more to gender-segregated sports than just weight class. I've always seen the basis as more along the lines of: we want people who have been on performance enhancing/muscle growth drugs all their life to compete separately from the rest.

[delphonso]

The solution to the sports argument should be that they change from gender-based bracketing to "weight-class" bracketing.

Professional Wrestling was right all along...

If performance-enhancing drugs didn'tcome with life-ruining side effects, I would love to see a Super Olympics with people at the absolute max of human output.

[scriver]

The absolute max of human output is what people are capable off without enhancement.

[Lord Shonus]

Most performance enhancing drugs don't really boost you to a level that can't be reached by non-drugged people. What they do is allow you to get there much faster, usually by letting you train a lot harder. One of the big points of evidence that Lance Armstrong was doping was that he was in the gym hours after most of his teammates had given up from exhaustion.

[LordBaal]

What about men, trans men, woman, transwoman and/or a mixed category by weigth/height (depending on the sport)? At least for a start.

[nenjin]

While I sympathize with Trans-athletes, my sympathies lie more with natural women athletes.

We don't see female to male transgenders going into male sports and dominating.

We see the exact opposite happening with male to female trans-genders.

You can take all the hormone blockers you want NOW, but it doesn't change the fact they've had a non-zero amount of time (sometimes decades) of development with male hormones giving them a competitive advantage. You don't immediately lose bone density, muscle mass, the ability to activate muscle responses by taking hormone blockers. Maybe after decades of hormone blockers you erode those advantages. But not in a year, or two years, or five years.

So I have almost no sympathy for male->female transgenders who enter competitive sports like weightlifting in the women's class. They're blatantly ignoring biology because it's going to help them win, and calling people bigots for pointing that out. They want the success and recognition representing transpeople in sports while stomping all over the rights of biologically consistent athletes.

I don't like "separate but equal" but in this case I don't see much alternative. We need a transgender class for sports, period. It's the only fair thing for biological women who are getting completely overshadowed by people who transitioned a year or so ago. There is already plenty of evidence of transgender women entering competitive female sports and crushing pre-existing records because.....they've still got the competitive advantage of a male. It's in no way fair, or sane, to pretend otherwise.

[Frumple]

We see the exact opposite happening with male to female trans-genders.

I mean, last I paid attention we don't actually see that, though?

[LordBaal]

There migth a reason...

[JoshuaFH]

Wasn't this... a South Park episode?

[LordBaal]

Yup. One that predicted very well the abuse this will lead to.

[nenjin]

I'll do some googling for you.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/mar/21/lia-thomas-victory-at-ncaa-swimming-finals-sparks-fierce-debate-over-trans-athletes
https://www.wired.com/story/the-glorious-victories-of-trans-athletes-are-shaking-up-sports/

I found one article of one female->male transgender athlete in swimming who has remained competitive. (Although it talked about their success in terms of "the team" rather than their direct results.) I don't see anything in the female->male weightlifting category for the same. (Weight lifting can be a bad example though because everyone is using hormones and other stuff there, muddying the waters.)

I found this article, written by a scientist (who is transgender and will pillory you for even mentioning that) providing data that in endurance running, outcomes are the same pre and post transition. It's *a* data point for that sport. They've done analysis on rowing and swimming and came to the same conclusion. Cased closed, right?

Except not. Their sample size is tiny because the population is tiny and secretive and doesn't want to out themselves. This isn't a "one study proves everything." We're talking about averages here, and the averages still say that men have more everything that helps them perform in competitive sports, and those advantages don't go away because someone wants to identify as something else. The very fact that all sporting bodies measure testosterone and place limitations and stipulations on it says that it matters. I disagree with the people whole-heartedly saying it doesn't matter. Their motives might be good (empowering trans people) but not when it directly contradicts factual biology.

Yup. One that predicted very well the abuse this will lead to.

I don't know what you're referring to but I'm not going to use it as the basis for this being a subject that can't be talked about.

[LordBaal]

There is a South Park episode were a very strong and muscled guy "identifies" as a woman to enter a competitive sport against woman and crush all of them/have a easy victory being his goal.

Not saying this migth be the case or if that has happened already since that only remains the consience of each trans athlete, but the world being what it is the chances of it happening increases with time.