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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4455335 times)

martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47655 on: February 21, 2022, 01:23:29 pm »

Fuck and goddamnit. Putin has recognised the seperatist republics of Donetsk and Luhansk as official countries.

This means he will by now have an invitation from the newly recognised states to move in his army and establish military bases.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47656 on: February 21, 2022, 01:27:16 pm »

Strange, I didnt know Russia had unilateral authority to recognize new nations. /s
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47657 on: February 21, 2022, 01:32:30 pm »

I sometimes wonder. Why do so many Russians put up with, or even believe Putin's lies?

Sometimes I think it is the legacy of Stalin killing just about every intellectual the country had. Their genetic basis for intelligence has been severely hampered.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47658 on: February 21, 2022, 01:45:18 pm »

When you have total control of state media, suppress non-state domestic media, and aggressively control foreign media it becomes possible to shape public opinion in dramatic ways. Even the foreign ideas that get in don't get shared as readily because bucking the state line carries risks.

That isn't some special insight to Russia today, just how every repressive society has worked in history.
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da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47659 on: February 21, 2022, 01:47:58 pm »

WWIII is a go then.

Appeasement never works. Sanctions and NATO boots on the ground should've been there yesteryear.
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LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47660 on: February 21, 2022, 02:17:37 pm »

I just hope Maduro do not do anything stupid... so yeah, we are fucked. "Luckily" we are in such a shitty condition that a real attack over the Gury Dam would left us effectively out of any war or conflict.


Oh shit Russia says they killed some military Ukranian saboteurs on their side of their border. TeleSur (news channel that sucks Putin's and all that is wrong and evil in the world dicks 24/7) its all over it as being an act of agression towards our Russian comrades...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 02:49:00 pm by LordBaal »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47661 on: February 21, 2022, 03:00:03 pm »

I do think that to be WW3, it needs to have more than one corner of one continent (or two, if East Asia has its own simultaneous, loosely-allied, conflict).

With most of the world allied/not-opposed to the idea of Ukraine being made inviolate, and very few blue-water navies[1] I don't see many gunboat operations off the River Plate, etc. Possibly some small states could be coerced (most likely by China, who holds the morgage documents for various small nations' infrastructure facilities and might be able to dictate things) to nibble away at one of the West's fleets if it swings by, but they couldn't and wouldn't do it off their own back.

As for land-battles, beyond the frontier(s) involved. I don't see there being a whole load of tensions out there (like the treaty-obligated pile-ins of WW1/2) that would spark divides in the regions like the 'good old days'. Bearing in mind that any seriosus WW3 between two great powers is going to a flash start and very quickly end (either in a good or a bad way) it'll not give many of those not already with skin in the game to mobilise. Though there are already simmering tensions that might produce


I think rogue long-range ballistics is the threat. There's a few nations out there with suborbital+ capabilities and possibly the right kind of grudge/deathwish. Some are supposed to have nukes (suspected to be able to put one atop a rocket). But with Cold-War legacy missile launch detection (and loads more commercial eyes in the sky up there to add to that), anything from NK 'accidentally' hitting Japan rather than the sea is going to be directly retaliated against at source, so less likely and more confined, rather than whole regional-takeovers.

And of course there's the three or four nations with significant and proven capability of initiating various Space Denial technologies, but... yeah, that's going to be a different thing altogether.  The "First Space War". And we won't be waiting until 2030 before the ISS gets abandoned and (if possible) put into re-entry. But that still won't make it a WW.


I'm probably thinking that if saner-minds can stop it from being a conflagration situation, they can stop it being more than a hot-spot in a revitalised Cold War.

[1] Russia has one. Historically, got a bit rusty from the start of the 1990s, but never quite lost the position and in the last 15 years or so it's certainly been 'Putin' in the effort to go back to world-class standards. They could be bothersome. China is developing their blue-water capabilities (relatively new, probably still more green-water on the whole, but extending the 'bits of green they patrol' at the same time). Other than that, Britain/France/Italy can separately or together claim spotty but ocean-wide presence, and they're not going to be used against the US, the biggest dog (and also the biggest target) of the sea. I think only India adds to that list, and I can't see them doing anything other than joining 'us' in fire-fighting any troublesome hit'n'run attacks on shipping that'd be more akin to state-sponsored piracy.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47662 on: February 21, 2022, 03:08:48 pm »

Russia's blue-water surface fleet is junk. Their support ships are seriously lacking, and their major combat ships show an alarming preference to be on fire.

It is their submarines that are truly dangerous. And submarines don't have the same power projection ability that surface ships do - they're sea denial assets rather than sea control ones.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47663 on: February 21, 2022, 04:07:28 pm »

Definitely it's not tip-top. But what hardware does still work is of the right class to be there, it's not like the Bolivian Navy suddenly tries to power-project beyond its own (inland) shores.

And the subs are the interesting thing. Not sure if the boomers are useful (too much chance of "what thas a nuke launch?", in the time between detection and landing, if that isn't what was intended) but if any capable HKs are sent off to randomly harass world trade in the middle of various oceans then they could accumulate a lot of ship-losses that are not so easily or immediately identifiable, with plausible deniability.  I doubt enough ASW resources (subs, boats, static sensors) could be mustered to prevent a very smart deployment. Though I also doubt it'll be remain a The Kraken Wakes-style mystery forever, so I think the piracy-move would be a gamble that the problems caused will compensate for the post-conflict sanctions.

The best thing to do with the more visible (and perhaps less capable) resources is to set them up to be 'retaliated against' in home waters or home ports (including Sevastapol) for the "Look! They attacked us!" self-propagandising bit.


...and, at this point I'm definitely being Armchair General/Admiral/Air Chief Marshal here. Simultaneously too much Tom Clancy and also not enough... ;)

I'm convinced the playing with toy soldiers bit is more likely to be to force more leverage in international matters (perhaps including territory gains, but not by strict invasion/occupation), rather than actual prelued to intentional war. Though even if that is the case I think it's a marginal difference between exerting exactly enough pressure and stepping over an actual line in the sand.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47664 on: February 21, 2022, 04:23:05 pm »

I dunno. Weeks of mobilization and troop movement to pressure Ukraine not to join NATO? That only works if you're willing to make good on your threat.
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Pwnzerfaust

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47665 on: February 21, 2022, 04:39:41 pm »

Ukraine already can't join NATO even without the troop mobilization. NATO policy states that no state can be invited if it currently has an ongoing territorial dispute, because it doesn't want to be used as a bludgeon in a territorial dispute. So if Ukraine wanted to join the alliance, they'd have to disavow any claims to Crimea or the separatist areas in the Donbas. They won't do that, and so, they won't be invited to NATO.

It's similar to Georgia's issues in Ossetia and Abkhazia, or Moldovia with Transnistria, or Cyprus's with the Turkish-occupied northern Cyprus.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47666 on: February 21, 2022, 04:44:37 pm »

Putin gave the most threatening speech ever since he became a leader 22 years ago.

According to Putin, "it is time for Russia to protect itself against preparations by the West to use Ukraine as a staging area for attacking the Russian people. The Ukrainian puppet regime of the US is preparing to develop nuclear weapons. Russia has every right to retaliate against these actions, to protect itself".

He continued to make it clear to the Ukraine that recognizing the sovereignty of Luhansk and Donetsk will not be the last intervention in the Ukraine, "if Ukraine does not stop the bloodshed".

"Ukraine owns it's very existence to communist Russia. Do you really want decommunisation? We stand ready to show you what decommunisation really means".



EDIT: AAAAAAANNNNDDDD.... As I predicted, Russia is already sending the military into the seperatist enclaves, calling it a 'peacekeeping force'.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/21/world/ukraine-russia-putin-biden

https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/poetin-stuurt-militairen-naar-rebellengebieden-in-oekraine-op-vredesmissie~bff4201a/

Technically, Russia is now officially at war with the Ukraine, having moved troops into Ukrainian territory.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 04:49:57 pm by martinuzz »
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47667 on: February 21, 2022, 04:52:42 pm »

That could even be it. Pressurise Ukraine to do anything it can to get into NATO to protect it from the further machinations of Russia, because that'll require the 'peaceful' abandonment of its claims to the disputed land, which will get Russia all it really wanted. Job done!

(Crimea for the obvious Black Sea port, but that bridge they built to link it to Mother Russia is a weak-link, so it'd be useful to have those other bits of territory and also the next two down the line (not sure how fragile their Ukrainian identity is, but I think they're 'on the verge') would also give a land-connection.)


Ok, Ninjaed by Martinuzz. I shall check the newswires for the 'reality', but take the above as at least an alt-future/history-to-be.
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da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47668 on: February 21, 2022, 05:02:42 pm »

NATO should let Ukraine join regardless of disputes, then send troops in to retake uppity separatist-occupied territories.

We should call Vova's bluff and dare him to commit nuclear suicide.

No balls.

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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47669 on: February 21, 2022, 05:06:28 pm »

I really hope there's enough sensibility left in some of the upper ranks of Russia's military to come up with a plan to assassinate Putin and his olicharg cronies before he destroys the free world.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479
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