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[feelotraveller]

Ah! Thanks @Lord Shonus - that's the thing I was not conveying properly.... I need to revise my statement that it's not both "positions" I think need equal footing in a discourse, but the people on both sides that both need respect.

It's when people start treating the people on either side of a debate with contempt, rather than the ideas, that things start going awry.

Would you support or oppose China and Russia (Egypt and Turkey) being invited to Biden's 'Summit for Democracy'?    (Yes it is a real unironical question, despite the tongue, in reference to the forgoing discussion - despite being international rather than domestic politics.)

Background: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-democracy-summit-china-biden-b1970022.html
(For amusement one could compare and contrast the version(s) of the article doing the rounds in the US, e.g.: https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/chinas-communists-bash-us-democracy-biden-summit-81553342

Doesn't mean real change can't come from below if an end comes to the rule of the rich old bastards, wherever (and perhaps everywhere) they are.  But while politics is defined their way, well shiiiiit...

[Eschar]

Ah! Thanks @Lord Shonus - that's the thing I was not conveying properly.... I need to revise my statement that it's not both "positions" I think need equal footing in a discourse, but the people on both sides that both need respect.

It's when people start treating the people on either side of a debate with contempt, rather than the ideas, that things start going awry.

"People deserve respect, ideas must earn it."

[McTraveller]

Would you support or oppose China and Russia (Egypt and Turkey) being invited to Biden's 'Summit for Democracy'?    (Yes it is a real unironical question, despite the tongue, in reference to the forgoing discussion - despite being international rather than domestic politics.)

Neutral; it does seem like that summit is just theater.

In a more broad sense, I think some of the criticism against "western democracy" is legitimate. Simply letting majority rule (or in the US case, "most popular" or more likely "most advertised") has some issues.  What's telling about the "non-western" statements though is they fall into the same trap as the US: they don't appear to acknowledge the weaknesses in their own systems.

The one thing I admire about the Eastern societies is the average individual generally has a greater sense of community and less of self compared to the west.  I'd say neither extreme is the "best" - on one end you end up getting walked all over with no sense of self, and in the other you end up walking all over everyone else because self is highest.  Both are sad states.

[Random_Dragon]

There's a trope for this situation, isn't there...

[feelotraveller]

Neutral; it does seem like that summit is just theater.

The rest of your reply is music to my ears. 

But I think that something more than theater is going on.  It represents an attempt, or maybe better, part of an ongoing effort, to manufacture a team of good GOOD against a team of bad EVIL.  At once diplomacy and propaganda.  Added flavour is a backhanded swipe at the previous administration.  More broadly I wonder how much the long-term hostile us vs. them foreign policy (the neverending war, despite the changing guard of enemy 'them') - including all the blatantly underhanded measures - has contributed to defining how politics is carried out within the US.  (A lot I suspect.)

Certainly it is not an open and honest discussion, with a plurality of viewpoints, about what democracy is (in its various forms) or what it could become - how it could improve.  Rather is is designed stifle that discussion.  An overriding procedural motion that takes place before any 'substantial' issue can be introduced.

Although this is admittedly a pretty trivial example, just timely and close at hand while being on point, it sets an example or tone for the rest of society to follow.  The democratic elements of china, russia, etc. are denied, the anti-democratic (or even autocratic) elements within the current administration are hidden.  Sides are established and nobody need think.  Let all rejoice and follow suit!

[MaxTheFox]

Whether I respect the other side varies depending on what the other side is. If it's plain old conservatives... I don't necessarily treat them like trash and I'm fine with debating them. Nazis, I refuse to argue in good faith with them and if I hold mod powers in the space I'm "arguing" with one I simply ban them without even reading much into their messages. If I don't then I block them and tell the mods to ban them because what community worth being in allows an unironic Nazi to exist?

[The_Explorer]

Well, I'll just bring it up from above post even though it is a completely different thing.

But it is a good time to bring it up I guess, since seen it recently on twitter and without looking back, saw someone mention israel vs iran (or maybe I just saw that on twitter) since they (israel) stated iran needs to pay harshly for their nuclear thing.

Which leads me to...sadly it seems nazism is very much on the rise like it did during the beginning of WW2. In this case, israel has legitimate issues with how they treat muslims and a lot of people on the left want to remove israel on the map (or maybe some people on the left want to go that far. Or maybe like I said before in this thread, its nazis pretending to be on the left wanting to destroy israel off the map (which I have seen nazis pretend to be liberal on twitter when talking about removing israel or punishing them). Which leads me to...sadly despite legitimate issues with israel, the nazis have taken advantage of this and have also rallied behind (some) of the left to remove israel or punish them in some way. This leads to a greater popularity of nazism, despite again, israel having some severe issues with palestine. They learned to get smart and pretend to be instead of someone who supports the far right, to pretend to be on the "left" to support in punishing israel in some regard.

Makes it hard to see who is a legitimate person or someone who is actually a nazi but pretending to have ideals of some who want to punish israel for what they do to palestine, whether warranted or not up to individual to decide, but they have treated muslims pretty bad recently imo. Either way, makes a sad situation when nazis start pretending to be on the left even if they are far right

[voliol]

With Israel/Palestina, you can’t equate any other political stance with being for/against any of the states, reasonable people may be against Israel’s oppression of muslims, or look the other way because of socially progressive stuff like LGBT rights (unsure about the IA+), and antisemites/nazis can either be happy over an ethnostate somewhere far away, or mad that they are not all dead. Of course, then there is also the muslim flavor of antisemitism (or whatever racism against only jews is called, arabs being semites and all) fed by feelings of vindication, not to mention christian doomsday cults which I understand has a particularly strong influence on US politics, etc. etc.

I don’t think you should suspect someone of being a nazi for being against Israel as long as they aren’t using the nazi arguments. In which case you bash them for being nazi trash. I don’t think it can be concluded that someone is a leftist or even socially progressive though for being against Israel for valid reasons.

[Vector]

Emma Goldman literally argued for the creation and immediate dissolution of Israel. . . it's not just the goyim

[The_Explorer]

I don’t think you should suspect someone of being a nazi for being against Israel as long as they aren’t using the nazi arguments. In which case you bash them for being nazi trash. I don’t think it can be concluded that someone is a leftist or even socially progressive though for being against Israel for valid reasons.

Well, you bring up good points. But I brought that part up, because on twitter looking at history of some who pretend to be progressive/democrat, I found their old tweets that showed support of trump and other far right ideas. May be a small group of them, but I actually took time and looked at "three" different users who had similar ideas, but then they suddenly changed once the israel issues started coming up. I reported them, one was banned and dunno about the other two. Either way, it is a thing, though how widespread it is, no idea. But at least some did hop on the anti-israel issues, which like I said, I think are legitimate issues. Can talk about issues of israel and its not nazism or anti-semetism, since its a country not talking about a people. I think people confuse the two with that. But still, of the three I looked at (well I looked at more, I think 10 people total during that time, only 3 were bad actors that were obvious, they were bad at it thats why I got suspicious), they definitely were pretending to be progressives or generally democrat even though their tweet history showed the opposite.

[Starver]

It is worth noting that, by some standards, the actions of Israel itself can be considered right-wing even to the extent of being some skewed but recognisable flavour of Naziism.

Tricky to really say this without the far-far-right using that to justify their own lingering historic feelings that "they were right all along" or possibly attracting the wrong sort of attention from the prosemitic crowd who think this is an attack upon the entire Jewish state itself and all its people/potential people. (It aint intended as either, on my part!)


Probably historic hard treatment (from others) has embedded some tendency to push back hard against their own 'others'. That there are still those places like Iran, who don't exactly try to avoid the continuity of such outside pressures, doesn't help reduce the whole resonant paranoia that has arisen between all sides and allegiances that exist across the region.



...what this all means is that very legitimate concerns can be painted as antisemitic, and clear defensive measures labelled as the actions of a regional aggressor, according to the eye of the beholder. That's in the world as a whole. I imagine the situation purely within the US political scene isn't much better (maybe tilted more towards favouring Israel, thanks to the inherent sociopolitical pressures - except when there's actual Nazis).


Oh, and then there's those Christian anti-Zionists who nonetheless 'support Israel' because it's a necessary herald of their particular flavour of The End Of Times they crave.

[KittyTac]

If Israel wasn't war crime happy then I'd support it wholeheartedly over Palestine. But as it is I choose to not take sides in that argument in particular.

[anewaname]

...
The clearest example is when climate is discussed "from both sides" - putting one climate scientist in a room with one climate change denier. This falsely creates the image that it is a 50:50 split in the scientific community, when it is really a 97:3 split among all scientists and a 100:0 on climate specialists. It is the tactic of the minority view-holder to cement themselves in a higher league.
...

Excellent...

[Iduno]

Speaking of countries with long-running campaigns of slavery and genocide, this is Ameripol, so let's check in on them.

https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1466917376084094985

So not only is the Biden administration not shutting down the Obama-era concentration camps, they're also expanding the Trump-era programs. While Trump was less effective at cruelty because his ego constantly got in the way, the cruelty was still the purpose. Now that we've got someone with a proven record of implementing policies that target minorities, we'll really see some evil.

[MaxTheFox]

Maybe hot take: ban NFTs.