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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4244126 times)

hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43185 on: January 10, 2021, 10:01:05 pm »

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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43186 on: January 11, 2021, 04:05:13 am »

I think the safest course of action from a limiting Trump's power standpoint would be for Pence and the cabinet to remove him.

I also think this would allow Pence to begin immediately implementing whatever Federal covid plans we must wait for Biden to be sworn in otherwise.

It appears the bottleneck is in administering the shots; I have heard of ideas to open large distribution centers such as stadiums or even parking lots for drive-in vaccinations. I don't know if this would be Federal but that's my guess due to the pending transition. Pence may be able to speed that process for the incoming team in useful ways, I would assume.

EDIT: I'm not a lawyer but if I remember correctly incitement precedent means it has to be quite specific in direction to illegal action. A better avenue for prosecutors may be conspiracy should foreknowledge of the illegal entry to the Capital have been known by speech givers. I wonder if they can and will use RICO... I have mixed feelings about that idea and don't know enough about it to offer an opinion.

I'm of the opinion that the Supreme Could would set some new precedents on incitement were it in front of them. IRC the current precedent is from the 50s or 60s and involved a speech by a white supremecist whose followers after a speech committed violent acts that the Supreme Court found they were not very specifically told to do by the speech giver who told them in more generic terms to do bad things. In other words, it appears there is a large loophole that I presume Giuliani and crew are clever enough to be aware of and how to attempt to skirt recklessly through.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 04:56:11 am by Duuvian »
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43187 on: January 11, 2021, 04:54:50 am »

I think the safest course of action from a limiting Trump's power standpoint would be for Pence and the cabinet to remove him.

The 25th Amendment is meant for Presidents who are actually incapacitated. If Pence did decide to try it, Trump could just fire his entire cabinet to prevent it, causing all sorts of problems to national security, etc., in the process.

Congress could pass a law creating a separate body that could rule him unfit, but they might as well impeach at that point.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 04:57:31 am by Bumber »
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Duuvian

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43188 on: January 11, 2021, 05:04:51 am »

If he fired the cabinet, wouldn't that just give Pence the sole vote?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The real issue I suppose would be that there is a longer period where Congress is involved that extends past the term anyways.

EDIT: I think I read it wrong? It says UNLESS Pence does the stuff within 4 days. Does Pence stay as Acting President for the 21 days Congress has to vote with a 2/3 threshold to maintain the VP as acting? If Pence is Acting President at that point, Congress can wait it out.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 05:14:42 am by Duuvian »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43189 on: January 11, 2021, 05:05:26 am »

Being an insurrectionist means you do not have the capacity to be President.

Also, if Trump fired his entire cabinet that would just mean Pence could remove him at-will. Once the situation has degenerated to that point nobody is going to take 0 out of 0 cabinet members as not fulfilling the inclusionist "and". The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Though more realistically, everybody would just ignore the notice that they were fired and vote to remove as normal, under the premise that the President's orders constitute mental incapacity.

Power can be slippery like that.  :)
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da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43190 on: January 11, 2021, 05:19:16 am »

Quote
Our priority will be Black, Latino, Asian, and Native American owned small businesses, women-owned businesses, and finally having equal access to resources needed to reopen and rebuild.
Biden Tweet

White men sit in the back of the bus, it seems.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43191 on: January 11, 2021, 05:48:49 am »

I assume that is a fake video?

I can't imagine Biden being that much of a racist / sexist.
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Quarque

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43192 on: January 11, 2021, 07:16:41 am »

I assume that is a fake video?

As always: don't assume, check the source. A quick google search confirms that this is genuine and not a fake video. However, you could argue that his quote is taken out of context and therefore not really a fair representation of his vision.

For example, check his own campaign website, e.g.: https://joebiden.com/womens-agenda/
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 07:28:41 am by Quarque »
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Mephisto

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43193 on: January 11, 2021, 08:27:37 am »

Uplifting disadvantaged groups is not racism against the group that received all of those benefits by default and that sentiment can go die in a fire.
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LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43194 on: January 11, 2021, 08:36:30 am »

You could read it as: I don't care about white men business, or as "We will focus on these groups because the other groups (in this case only one, white manes businesses) are fine".

Say, there's a fire on your street. Will you be bothered is your water is cut so the fire hydrant have max capacity to put out the fire? Now, if you are going to have your water permanently cut off water afterwards then it will be a problem.

A better statement would be along the lines of "We will focus on restoring ALL BUSINESS, no matter your ethnic background or sex, because we are all North Americans, equal under the law and deserve equal opportunities."
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43195 on: January 11, 2021, 08:48:21 am »

The thing people forget, and which I didn't realize until recently and so have changed my stance, when looking at things like Affirmative Action where people cry foul about using "quotas" or a prioritization scheme not based "on merit":

Too often the non-minority population looks at the instantaneous "fairness" of the incentive system - "I'm not being judged right now on my merit." This is too narrow a view - they are not looking at the systematic fairness of the incentives.  What I mean by this is, say you have a pool of 100 slots in a school.  Say that the population distribution is a 70/30 split.  Also say that the distribution of the graduates over the past 10 years is 990/10.  So if we switch our viewpoint from "who is in the school now" to "who are the graduates from the school over the past 10 years", it is actually a fair system to have, for a catch-up period, annual acceptance rates that look "unfair" on a short-term view - say a 50/50 split or even more extreme - but are actually more "fair" over a long-term view.

So in this new even more heated political season - I encourage you to expand your views about what is "fair" - yes incentive programs now may look unfair - but I would say that is probably a too narrow definition of "fair."
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43196 on: January 11, 2021, 08:49:43 am »

A better statement would be along the lines of "We will focus on restoring ALL BUSINESS, no matter your ethnic background or sex, because we are all North Americans, equal under the law and deserve equal opportunities."

Canada has changed its diplomatic relationship with United States of America: Declaration of war.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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MorleyDev

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43197 on: January 11, 2021, 08:52:27 am »

Could always, I dunno...make the US President not just blanket immune to the law? Like a lot of other western (admittedly usually de facto) Heads of State are? Maybe don't treat the US President as just an Elected Monarch? It's like you guys saw that the power of Kings was bad, but decided the problem wasn't one person with that power but that they had it by birth and not via election. The power is still a problem!

@McTraveller: PREACH!
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43198 on: January 11, 2021, 09:02:15 am »

The President isn't immune to the law, but while in office they can only be indicted by Congress. Congress' dysfunctional nature is independent of this.

Trump might get fucked by all the state prosecutions that have been waiting in the wings against him yet. 
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

MorleyDev

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #43199 on: January 11, 2021, 09:19:23 am »

The US Justice Department has a policy that the president cannot be criminally prosecuted whilst in office, and Impeachment is a political process not a judical one. Those state prosecutions won't happen until he leaves office. The problem is they have personal 4-to-8 years of what is basically legal immunity.

It really should be closer to what Parliamentary privilage is in the UK, only covering acts taken in the course of executing their duties as an elected official and not unrelated acts.  Congress and impeachment could be closer to a vote of no confidence, what to do if they exhibit 'behaviour unbecoming', rather than literally stetching to having to deal with 'I shot a man and liked it' situations.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 09:25:46 am by MorleyDev »
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