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[MorleyDev]

Not letting people use computers or the internet until they're 25 or so will help.

And practically slow down to the point of ending all technological progress in society, considering most people in modern and growing 'high skilled' positions like engineering and whatnot get started as teenagers or younger and do so learning from the internet.

Just saying, cutting people off from the sum total of all human knowledge should always be seen as on balance a bad thing for humanity. We need to get better at teaching people how to process that data though.

[SalmonGod]

I’m not sure there is much anyone can do about the incel problem. In every generation there will always be someone left on the bench, and biology doesn’t help as natural selection largely works by excluding the unfit (with females performing the selection in most species).

Not letting people use computers or the internet until they're 25 or so will help.

The internet basically saved my life in my teen years.

[MrRoboto75]

This discussion got weird.

I'm seeing a lot of "now the protests will end" as if that's a bad thing from the Right on my facebook. I think the idea is that protests were a Democrat Plot pushed by the Mainstream Media. The world in which the far right lives is one where the Democrats are capable of incredible organization and competence.

Facism needs enemies that are alarmingly pervasive, numerous and competent, but also somehow actually incapable of stopping you from, oh, I dunno … controlling all three branches of government or something.

[scriver]

I’m not sure there is much anyone can do about the incel problem. In every generation there will always be someone left on the bench, and biology doesn’t help as natural selection largely works by excluding the unfit (with females performing the selection in most species).

Not letting people use computers or the internet until they're 25 or so will help.

The internet basically saved my life in my teen years.

I used to think the same, but now I understand that it was actually the problem.

[Frumple]

I mean, I probably would have killed myself or someone else without it. Stuck in a place where better than half the population would cheerfully see you crippled or dead for not being a bigoted sack of shit isn't exactly somewhere you want to be without some kind of window to somewhere that's not quite so fucking horrible.

[SalmonGod]

This discussion got weird.

I'm seeing a lot of "now the protests will end" as if that's a bad thing from the Right on my facebook. I think the idea is that protests were a Democrat Plot pushed by the Mainstream Media. The world in which the far right lives is one where the Democrats are capable of incredible organization and competence.

Facism needs enemies that are alarmingly pervasive, numerous and competent, but also somehow actually incapable of stopping you from, oh, I dunno … controlling all three branches of government or something.

The enemy must simultaneously serve the narrative that the chosen people are superior, but also that the threat is scary enough to justify any course of action.  This is why being oppressed by massive conspiracy, and overwhelmingly outnumbered due to immigration and outbreeding are so consistently the two pillars of that narrative.  It's the only way to portray a bitter war for survival, where also the people on one side of that war are individually better than anyone on the other side.

[McTraveller]

I was not claiming that "return to the way it was 4 years ago" was the desired end state.  The idea was in fact to stop the bleeding.  It's also sad to me that there is still so much despair "yeah ok this is a change, but it's going to be even worse."  Why so much resignation?  We should use this opportunity to start putting in place the systemic changes to help avoid something perceived as worse in the future.

"Pay a living wage" - this is a systematic issue, and can't be solved easily.  It's almost like the prisoner's dilemma - if a single company A that is making a profit starts to pay its workers more, that won't help that company - all that extra money will (all else equal) go to the profits of the companies that sell things to the employees of company A. So maybe it will help Employees A for a short time, but not in the long run.  It will take "enough" companies paying their workers more, so that all companies' employees get more pay.  Or it will take some other change, like UBI, or even something more drastic like tying money creation to production, rather than to debt.

Incidentally I would say 75% of the issues are economic and 25% are people - even progressives - not wanting change imposed by someone else (e.g., "someone else moving into the neighborhood").

The economic issues really all boil down to two conflicting tensions: people who work want to keep the majority of the output of their work for themselves, but people who are out of work want some kind of social safety support.  Some people think the safety support should be there for any reason, but others think it should have some criteria like you have to "pay in" first to get a payout.

That all said, none of this can be solved in 4 years, or even 8 - any change is likely to be a generation thing.  Keep in mind that this election is the first time that people born post-9/11 could vote - so we are seeing that "generational" effect.  Even if you get a revolution, which will destroy things very quickly, it will take a generation to rebuild after that change.

However, even if we know something takes a long time to change, that doesn't mean we should delay trying to change it - we should start now so the time to final change is minimized.

[Folly]

I used to think the same, but now I understand that it was actually the problem.

One person's problem is another's salvation. It is folly for any of us to assume that what works for us must also be best for everyone else.

[MaxTheFox]

I’m not sure there is much anyone can do about the incel problem. In every generation there will always be someone left on the bench, and biology doesn’t help as natural selection largely works by excluding the unfit (with females performing the selection in most species).

Not letting people use computers or the internet until they're 25 or so will help.

The internet basically saved my life in my teen years.

I used to think the same, but now I understand that it was actually the problem.

Not letting people use computers or the internet until they're 25 or so will help.

And practically slow down to the point of ending all technological progress in society, considering most people in modern and growing 'high skilled' positions like engineering and whatnot get started as teenagers or younger and do so learning from the internet.

Just saying, cutting people off from the sum total of all human knowledge should always be seen as on balance a bad thing for humanity. We need to get better at teaching people how to process that data though.

I and some of my friends used to think the same, scriver, but then we realized it's a terrible idea.

[SalmonGod]

I’m not sure there is much anyone can do about the incel problem. In every generation there will always be someone left on the bench, and biology doesn’t help as natural selection largely works by excluding the unfit (with females performing the selection in most species).

Not letting people use computers or the internet until they're 25 or so will help.

The internet basically saved my life in my teen years.

I used to think the same, but now I understand that it was actually the problem.

Also yeah... basically what Frumple said.

I grew up in a small town in Indiana where I didn't fit in.  Not-a-single-stoplight small.  I had intellectual, D&D-playing parents and a computer geek dad.  In the early 90's.  I was the weird kid/nerd/satan worshipper.  And I could never understand the pervasive bigotry.  Had basically no healthy relationships with any of my meatspace peers from ages 8-15.  Bullied and made fun of.  I was the punchline of every joke.  Not shown a shred of respect by anyone.

I spent 8-12 mostly wandering around outside by myself catching bugs and stuff, or renting NES games on the weekends.  By 13, I was desperate enough that I started hanging around with a bad group.  They were incredibly toxic and only kept me around because I would do whatever they wanted and put up with anything.  Thankfully my family got internet when I was 13.  I made a bunch of friends online quickly, learned what healthy friendship and respect were like, and started learning about the world by talking to people from all over the place every day.  Learned that there were people in the world unlike the fucked up place I was living, and that I didn't have to look forward to a future of nothing but that.

I became withdrawn and socially independent within a year.  Cut myself off from that toxic group of kids I had been subjecting myself to.  Last I knew, they were drop-outs and in & out of jail.

The internet was culturally very different in its early days.  But I still stand by it.

[scriver]

I mean, I probably would have killed myself or someone else without it.

Nah, you  probably wouldn't.

I’m not sure there is much anyone can do about the incel problem. In every generation there will always be someone left on the bench, and biology doesn’t help as natural selection largely works by excluding the unfit (with females performing the selection in most species).

Not letting people use computers or the internet until they're 25 or so will help.

The internet basically saved my life in my teen years.

I used to think the same, but now I understand that it was actually the problem.

Also yeah... basically what Frumple said.

I grew up in a small town in Indiana where I didn't fit in.  Not-a-single-stoplight small.  I had intellectual, D&D-playing parents and a computer geek dad.  In the early 90's.  I was the weird kid/nerd/satan worshipper.  And I could never understand the pervasive bigotry.  Had basically no healthy relationships with any of my meatspace peers from ages 8-15.  Bullied and made fun of.  I was the punchline of every joke.  Not shown a shred of respect by anyone.

I spent 8-12 mostly wandering around outside by myself catching bugs and stuff, or renting NES games on the weekends.  By 13, I was desperate enough that I started hanging around with a bad group.  They were incredibly toxic and only kept me around because I would do whatever they wanted and put up with anything.  Thankfully my family got internet when I was 13.  I made a bunch of friends online quickly, learned what healthy friendship and respect were like, and started learning about the world by talking to people from all over the place every day.  Learned that there were people in the world unlike the fucked up place I was living, and that I didn't have to look forward to a future of nothing but that.

I became withdrawn and socially independent within a year.  Cut myself off from that toxic group of kids I had been subjecting myself to.  Last I knew, they were drop-outs and in & out of jail.

The internet was culturally very different in its early days.  But I still stand by it.

I was the same kid, and all computers ever did was shut me away from other people and prevent me from learning how to have meaningful relationships. And it's the same for most people - there's a reason people today are lonelier than ever, and that reason is computers and video games.

[MrRoboto75]

Well whenever I go out I'm borderline invisible with the only real interaction being outright hostility, on account of being an ugly autistic man.  Maybe if that were different I'd try considering leaving the computer.

[MaxTheFox]

I mean, I probably would have killed myself or someone else without it.

Nah, you  probably wouldn't.

I’m not sure there is much anyone can do about the incel problem. In every generation there will always be someone left on the bench, and biology doesn’t help as natural selection largely works by excluding the unfit (with females performing the selection in most species).

Not letting people use computers or the internet until they're 25 or so will help.

The internet basically saved my life in my teen years.

I used to think the same, but now I understand that it was actually the problem.

Also yeah... basically what Frumple said.

I grew up in a small town in Indiana where I didn't fit in.  Not-a-single-stoplight small.  I had intellectual, D&D-playing parents and a computer geek dad.  In the early 90's.  I was the weird kid/nerd/satan worshipper.  And I could never understand the pervasive bigotry.  Had basically no healthy relationships with any of my meatspace peers from ages 8-15.  Bullied and made fun of.  I was the punchline of every joke.  Not shown a shred of respect by anyone.

I spent 8-12 mostly wandering around outside by myself catching bugs and stuff, or renting NES games on the weekends.  By 13, I was desperate enough that I started hanging around with a bad group.  They were incredibly toxic and only kept me around because I would do whatever they wanted and put up with anything.  Thankfully my family got internet when I was 13.  I made a bunch of friends online quickly, learned what healthy friendship and respect were like, and started learning about the world by talking to people from all over the place every day.  Learned that there were people in the world unlike the fucked up place I was living, and that I didn't have to look forward to a future of nothing but that.

I became withdrawn and socially independent within a year.  Cut myself off from that toxic group of kids I had been subjecting myself to.  Last I knew, they were drop-outs and in & out of jail.

The internet was culturally very different in its early days.  But I still stand by it.

I was the same kid, and all computers ever did was shut me away from other people and prevent me from learning how to have meaningful relationships. And it's the same for most people - there's a reason people today are lonelier than ever, and that reason is computers and video games.

TBH? For me and many of my friends we never liked the other kids in school anyways and never befriended them for long. I don't care if I'm lonely IRL. I have my Internet friends. They're more convenient than IRL friends. I have very few of those, intentionally.

Doesn't help that many of those kids from school were idiots who smoked cigarettes and drank themselves to shit in the school backyard. I didn't even want to associate myself with them. If there was no Internet I'd just read books at home because I didn't want to talk anyways.

Your argument hinges on people even wanting to interact with people who they might not even like IRL. Hint: Not everyone does. So stop with your pushy moralism. You sound like a member of one of those "organizations for concerned parents".

[nenjin]

TBH, I don't really agree that you can lay loneliness at the feet of video games.

I had friends as a kid, and we all played the vidya games as a group. Some of my best memories. After grade school, I branched out, met people, did some partying. But gaming with friends always remained my favorite way to spend time. As I got older, and life got more complicated, video games and gaming became a retreat from the pressures of life. I had plenty examples of what "normal" people did with their time and it basically amounted to two things: conversation and drinking. The former was often lacking as you'd be put together with randos and try to find common ground, and the latter after a few years just left me feeling like garbo. Then people started getting married, having kids, worked jobs and the amount of time to do stuff with them got smaller and smaller.

It comes down to personality type, and finding the right people that jive with your personality. You can find that online, or off. If you're feeling the loneliness and think gaming is the reason, then by all means change. But I kinda don't like painting all of video games and gaming as maladaptive behavior. The same could easily be said of the other side of the coin, going out and partying and just "mixing it up" as your default way of being.

As usual though, the answer is usually the same: a balance is what is best.

[martinuzz]

Well whenever I go out I'm borderline invisible with the only real interaction being outright hostility, on account of being an ugly autistic man.  Maybe if that were different I'd try considering leaving the computer.

Find better places to hang out at. 95% of places to go out and have fun at might suck, but I've found that (at least over here) there's always still a few nice places where people don't judge.
And yeah it's scary to go out and find those.  What worked for me is getting jobs in pubs, bars, music avenues, pop festivals.  Being one of the staff gives both a valid reason to go out and be there, as well as a layer of protection against intolerant dumbasses.
Plus, it's a lot of fun.