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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4464991 times)

ZBridges

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35370 on: March 11, 2020, 01:11:46 am »

Pardon an Australian jumping in here, but Sanders isn't dead yet, is he? He could still beat Biden and get elected over Trump, right?

Technically, but extremely unlikely.  He'll probably give up soon.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35371 on: March 11, 2020, 01:45:51 am »

I hope he will at least wait to see how March 17 plays out first.  If it's like today, then yeah, he's not viable.  But there's easily enough delegates there to close the gap with a decent showing.  With the debate only two days before, which is highly unlikely to work in Biden's favor, and we have seen with every other voting day so far that the majority of voters don't make their choice until a day or two before voting.
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Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35372 on: March 11, 2020, 02:48:54 am »

Man, I hate to say it but I've never gotten in the least why people are saying that Trump is anything like Biden.  From outside they couldn't look more different, in terms of policy and personality, and Biden's speechifying lately has seemed.. quite good.  Miles better than Trump and his 40-word vocabulary.

Some of the other stuff, like "Biden won't tax the rich" also seems way off.  Taxes are Congress's domain, after all, so not much to do with him unless he vetoes it, and I really can't see him vetoing even very significant tax hikes.  Maaaybe a wealth tax, but I'm far from convinced one would really be necessary.

There's a couple of other angles that don't make sense.  Biden's campaign had basically no money, and that limited it's ability to spend and build a ground game.  If Biden was really bankrolled by all these huge donors, it would have shown up with much more wall to wall bought coverage.. but none of that happened.  Also, if he was really the one establishment tool, why were there so many other moderates running?  Support only went behind him because he was top moderate, not the one chosen tool, and he was top moderate due to.. votes.

If you want a place where the executive can make a difference on tax policy, the place for that is enforcement.  And if he's elected, we'll enter the post-trump era where every reporter on the planet will want to see the paid-off fat cats through Trumps stock manipulation put through the wringer, along with the outright incompetents and fraudsters he put in charge of basically every federal law enforcement agency gone.  Those are the difference-makers in the executive branch, and I'm pretty damn sure there will be some competent people placed there, under Biden.

So, in summary, I don't see why Biden would be anything like Trump.  From outside, here's what I've seen as important actions by Trump:

Gutting federal law enforcement agencies, by filling them with toadies and incompetents.  Funny enough, many of the people appointed by Obama turned out to be annoyingly hard to corrupt and made it take several years for Trump to root them out and render the agencies the nonfunctional shells they are today.

Stacking the courts.  Filling them with essentially the entire lineup of available right-wing toadies and incompetents will eventually render them incapable of saying no to any actions made for progress.  The reason you still have expanded medicare and the privileges associated with such is entirely because the Trump organization has lost so many attempts to remove those protections through the courts.  Here's a summary, and it might be a bit of an eye-opener:

https://policyintegrity.org/trump-court-roundup

Biden won't be appointing judges who will be willing to vote to remove those protections from people.  Also note how many Republican-appointed judges who concur with them.  It's Trumpism that is pushing for that sort of bullshit, not the moderates.

The last, and possibly most important thing is the normalization of governmental dysfunction.  Ignoring congressional subpoenaes?  Firing people for talking to congress?  Hiding negotiations behind super-classified directions?  Claiming any and all investigations are lies?  Claiming epidemics are simply hoaxes?  Banning funding for climate research?

The single most basic element necessary to a democratic government is the element of choice.  And in order to make a reasonable choice, information is required.

The reason for Putin's survival in Russia is largely because a good chunk of the Russian population can't see there being any reasonable alternatives to him.  This was done through outright murder, attacks on journalists, lethal or otherwise, international assassinations, jailing of political opponents, etcetera.  These aren't exaggerations or such, but actual things that he has done in order to retain power.  For all that I've heard of the evils of the Democratic establishment, Sanders hasn't been arrested, has a seat in the Senate, has held huge rallies across the country at multiple locations, and has ran for president previously.  It's simple and easy to find information on what his views are and what he wants to do.

That's.. not what it's like for Trump.  If you want to find out the actuals of what he's done?  Well, his talks with foreign governments are impossibly classified.  FOIA requests are heavily redacted when they are available.  Political opponents are to be investigated, both by domestic and foreign governments.  Hell, you can't even find out how much he's paying himself to golf at his own resort, (via charging the secret service) because they stopped sending that information to Congress after year one.  In general, you aren't allowed to know thing one about your own government with him in charge.

Biden.. well, he isn't like that.  I can see reasons for people to prefer Sanders, both as a candidate and in terms of policy, but I don't see how you can call Biden anything like Trump.  And supporting a wannabe dictator under whom there may not be another meaningful election simply because Biden may not do some things you want to see happen..  well..  that I don't understand.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 03:38:32 am by Devastator »
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Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35373 on: March 11, 2020, 03:41:31 am »

Anyway, I'm sorry about the rant, but I feel the need to express myself for how important I feel this next election is for both America and the world.  Personally, for the first time since 2016, I have hope, real hope that we'll see a functional United States.  And yes, one that can take meaningful action to benefit the world once more.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 03:43:37 am by Devastator »
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35374 on: March 11, 2020, 04:26:37 am »

For a bit of math as I have been able to figure it, for Sanders to win the nom at this point he has to win a bit over half of all remaining delegates.

Florida and Georgia are coming up, do I need to explain why two southern states which Hillary beat him in 4 years ago aren't the ideal places to hope for a turnaround at this point, never mind Ohio, Illinois, and Arizona, and a showing as bad in Wisconsin as the one in Michigan last night... stick a fork in him maybe?
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35375 on: March 11, 2020, 05:17:31 am »

-
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 12:14:12 pm by dragdeler »
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Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35376 on: March 11, 2020, 05:50:15 am »

So you're voting for the nominee regardless of who it is, I take it, so that Trump is less likely to win?

Because, there'd be endless repititions about Sander's weaknesses from the trumpists if he were the frontrunner.  Indeed, this was quite clearly demonstrated when he was the frontrunner, and instead of 'cognitive decline' it was about 'heart attack'

There is no person who does not have weaknesses and would be immune from such attacks.  What matters to you is ultimately going to be up to you.  For me whoever was picked, from the entire pool of candidates at the start of the primaries, every last one of them would be demonstratably better than Trump is now across the board.  That includes in the particular category of cognitive decline, which is quite clear from his word salad.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1233514317011673089

That's probably a pretty solid example of such.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 06:14:55 am by Devastator »
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35377 on: March 11, 2020, 06:36:46 am »

-
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 12:14:17 pm by dragdeler »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35378 on: March 11, 2020, 06:53:34 am »

On the 15th, assuming neither of them die before then. I don't even think they're going to let gabbard on the stage for this one, iirc.
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Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35379 on: March 11, 2020, 06:57:03 am »

Saying Biden has no substance is kinda ignoring his speech tonight.  Or the man's family, who obviously love him.

Also, it'd be nice to hear why you'd say something like this:

"Donald Trump is the better Trump than this miscarriage named Joe who is aspirationally somewhere between Hillary and Trump."

I'd like to hear from someone who says they're similar a specific reason on why they're similar, when they're so different both personally and policy-wise.

Lastly, well, who do you like in 2020, then?  Because you're claiming to not support Biden because he's a lesser version of trump, then following it up by saying the Democratic party shouldn't exist, and you seem to be presenting yourself as a Sanders supporter.

..however, a Sanders supporter who is unwilling to say anything negative about Trump.  If you can say one thing you don't like about Trump, or ask me why I don't like Trump, I'll be completely convinced you're a Sanders supporter.  Otherwise, I think you're a Trump supporter pulling for Sanders, likely because he's seen as easier to beat, or as part of the efforts in convincing the liberal left to not vote.

Of course, if I'm way off base and you just support Trump, just say as much and I'll drop it.  I wouldn't agree with you then, but that's not a problem.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 07:10:56 am by Devastator »
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TamerVirus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35380 on: March 11, 2020, 07:04:32 am »

The winner in 2020 is gonna be Coronavirus for sure
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Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35381 on: March 11, 2020, 07:08:13 am »

Yeah.  Still, despite everything I remain optimistic.  In the long-term, things almost always get better.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35382 on: March 11, 2020, 07:10:34 am »

In the long-term, things almost always get better.
That's because the people they didn't get better for are dead. Kinda skews the sample. Now kindly keep away with all your germ-infected fingers while I cock my gun to protect my toilet paper mountain.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 07:12:24 am by Reelya »
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Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35383 on: March 11, 2020, 07:11:24 am »

The people it did get better for also die too..  I'm mostly talking historically here.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35384 on: March 11, 2020, 07:12:51 am »

..however, a Sanders supporter who is unwilling to say anything negative about Trump.  If you can say one thing you don't like about Trump, or ask me why I don't like Trump, I'll be completely convinced you're a Sanders supporter.  Otherwise, I think you're a Trump supporter pulling for Sanders, likely because he's seen as easier to beat, or as part of the efforts in convincing the liberal left to not vote.

I'm personally of the opinion that several folks here (myself included) don't specifically mention things we dislike about Trump anymore because it's meaningless at this point, we're all kinda numb, and it's honestly a bit demoralizing. Trying to argue that Trump is bad is like trying to argue that 2 is a number. We know. We all know. There's nothing to argue. With the addition that if we do make a statement about it being a number because it is 2, it's just going to do something even 2ier in a week or so and cement the point even further, so there's no real reason to make a stand right now.


The winner in 2020 is gonna be Coronavirus for sure

Well, you're obviously biased! Fake infections!
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