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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4210266 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33810 on: December 23, 2019, 06:11:40 pm »

That's more self-imposed than anything. The government can only run out of money by running out of authority - there is a point where printing enough money could cause that to happen, but it's mostly all in the brains of the parasite sons of bitches who stole the world.

Whether there is confidence or no confidence in structures to provide for humanity, physically the resources are all there. That's the true horror of all this. We have the means for gay space communism, and it's sitting in locked warehouses with CCTV cameras and fast-tracked police response. If the world falls apart, we will still have had those means all along, still sitting in dark warehouses, guarded by dead cameras.

In this way, the fundamental Republican conceit finds some truth - they are indeed being stolen from, if only by the people they choose to worship rather than the targets of their rage.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33811 on: December 23, 2019, 07:01:20 pm »

If the federal government needed tax revenue to operate, then that would suggest it could run out of the currency which it issues, wouldn't it?

I mean, that's how you end up with bills for 50 million Zimbabwe dollars.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33812 on: December 23, 2019, 07:12:33 pm »

Sorry I'm picking nits here: in the US, the federal government cannot print money - only the Federal Reserve can create (or destroy) money.  This is why I said it's not tied to taxes - the Federal Reserve doesn't have anything to do with taxes.

You can, of course, debate about if the Federal Reserve is(n't) part of the federal government.

I agree that this is orthogonal to the "warehouses of resources" mentioned - although I don't think we really do have that kind of warehouse of goods.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33813 on: December 23, 2019, 08:45:51 pm »

I agree that this is orthogonal to the "warehouses of resources" mentioned - although I don't think we really do have that kind of warehouse of goods.

Maybe not exactly/literally in the manner described, but in the aggregate, the majority of our resources are deliberately wasted.  Capitalism cannot function as it does in the current era without enforced artificial scarcity.  At this level of inequality, the economic machinery only cares whether transactions are taking place between businesses.  After many dozens of steps when those transactions have managed to result in a product being made, it doesn't care whether that product ever finds any actual use.  At this point, the product is often a byproduct of the real point of business - merely an excuse for businesses to exchange numbers on spreadsheets back and forth between each other in order to ritualize the directing of the numbers on those spreadsheets into the accounts of the ultra-wealthy who own the whole process, which is itself a hollow ritualization of the ultra-wealthy maintaining control over the world's resources purely for the sake of denying them to others.  In many cases, businesses deem that it is more cost-effective if the product is never sold.  Whether they sit unused in a warehouse or are destroyed depends on the type of good.

Example that I stumbled across recently.  It's pretty common practice to accept returned products, only to destroy them.  Because it's cheaper to destroy the product than it is to pay someone to evaluate and re-package it at a lower price, and donating to charity or something damages the prestige of their brand and drives down price.

The majority of the food we produce is wasted, while millions are hungry.  Many businesses will pour bleach on perfectly good food before throwing it away, because it's less hassle than calling the cops on dumpster divers.

And everyone's favorite that I will point out at every opportunity until capitalism is dead... banks were caught deliberately keeping foreclosed houses off the market in the aftermath of 2008 in order to inflate prices, especially egregious when you consider that thousands of those foreclosures were illegal.

At some point, someone does need to buy something to keep the esoteric ritual going, and the world under its spell.  But artificially enforcing scarcity means the goods that are bought at inflated prices balances the whole arrangement, while keeping the lower classes at just the right level of desperation that they can't sacrifice the time and energy necessary to figure the whole thing out and organize against it.

I've been thinking lately that sometime in the moderately near future, the 1% are going to try and turn it all into a closed-loop process.  Instead of marketing products to consumers, they'll start making bots that do automated online shopping and the shipping address will be a facility where stuff is just thrown in an incinerator.  Real consumers are too expensive to cater to.  Yeah, it's absurd and unsustainable and near everybody will suffer for it.  But don't think like that.  Think like a Jeff Bezos.  Imagine re-directing all of your marketing and a huge chunk of your labor costs into immediate, guaranteed, predictable sales.  The whole point is that money cycles, and every cycle allows them to take a chunk and store it away.  When they've captured all of it, what will there be left to do?  It's not like any of the physical stuff systemically matters.  Only the numbers on spreadsheets.  I 100% believe that most of them are such callous ideological slaves to that process, that when there's no longer any such thing as a consumer because everyone but them is too poor to survive, that their response would be to just create an automated synthetic replacement for the whole song and dance.  They would fucking love it, too.  Let it run and just consider the whole thing done and taken care of once and for all, as they party to the end of their days in the post-apocalypse inside their glass-domed self-contained eco-mansions just like the protagonists locked inside the mall in Dawn of the Dead.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 08:48:30 pm by SalmonGod »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33814 on: December 23, 2019, 09:32:44 pm »

I highly recommend reading the report I linked to on the prior page. Rather than tying this to inequality (it doesn't really bring up inequality at all from what I can tell), it ties it to the simple fact that the worth of assets and the amount of debt has outpaced income to ludicrous levels. In short, how capitalism functions in the current era produces inequality, rather than acts as a byproduct from it. No one could except that the global economy would slow down after WWII, so we've been artificially jacking assets up by cheapening debt ever since. Assets rise, people realize that that's insane, assets collapse, debt gets ratcheted lower so that people go back to throwing money at increasingly risky assets. Meanwhile, income starts becoming a negligible fraction of wealth- it all gets tied up in artificially inflated assets.
Marx describes this almost verbatim by way of the tendency of profit to decrease over time and capitalism's inevitable acts of overproduction creating armies of labor by "misery in the midst of opulence". Definitely no post-WWII black swan here.
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33815 on: December 23, 2019, 11:17:22 pm »

Sorry I'm picking nits here: in the US, the federal government cannot print money - only the Federal Reserve can create (or destroy) money.  This is why I said it's not tied to taxes - the Federal Reserve doesn't have anything to do with taxes.

You can, of course, debate about if the Federal Reserve is(n't) part of the federal government.

I agree that this is orthogonal to the "warehouses of resources" mentioned - although I don't think we really do have that kind of warehouse of goods.
Oh snap, I think you're mixing up the Fed with the role of the Treasury (produces currency, pays government bills) and IRS (gathers tax revenue, handles the administrative shit there) and it didn't occur to me until just now.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33816 on: December 23, 2019, 11:26:48 pm »

if only someone had thought of an alternative to capitalism

i guess we'll never know
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

JoshuaFH

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33817 on: December 24, 2019, 01:54:24 am »

Are you saying I should be stocking up on guns, food, medicine, and cigarettes for the upcoming collapse of the economy and then I'll be the top dog in the new barter economy?
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33818 on: December 24, 2019, 02:24:15 am »

I don't think the 1% will deliberately autoburn product. Rather, within the next 50ish years automation will replace human labor, and at that point capitalism will cease to exist. Either there will be a world of abundance for all, or the capitalists at that moment will keep all the products of automation for themselves and use their abundance to eliminate the serfs, or at least fence them out from any hope of productivity.

It won't even be a matter of wealth -- or rather, there will be only two discrete levels of wealth: Those who have or can request literally any physically plausible phenomenon, and those who have absolutely nothing. At that point, revolution will be impossible, as Georgina Bloomberg, to pick a person at random, will be able to tell her manufacturing equipment to produce an unending supply of predator drones whereas the average rioter will be armed with rebar with a chunk of concrete still on it.

Oh, but the technicians and engineers wouldn't allow that? At the point of full automation, those jobs don't exist anymore.

I guess the good news is that this will save the non-human biosphere, unless Xavier Musk decides that purging the planet entirely and leaving for Mars is a more attractive option than manually killing off all the peasants.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33819 on: December 24, 2019, 03:58:53 am »

-
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 08:04:54 pm by dragdeler »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33820 on: December 24, 2019, 11:49:12 am »

Yeah, iDystopia is a horrifying visage, but it'll never actually happen because the very process of moving into it means there's a period with system-shattering levels of unemployment long before you can get to "press button, extrude drone strike, barbecue orphans". Logistics is complicated shit, and while computers are good at it they're not quite that good at it. The computer doesn't know what to do if one of your thousands of homeless former employees comes around and cuts the fuel line, it just calls for help, and if you cut the internet it doesn't even do that.

This is a point where me and Ispil are in agreement - the next crash is the finale. Perhaps not for capitalism as a whole, but it definitely could be that. Either way, nothing will ever be the same again, even more so than in 08. This decade has been all but an intermission.
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33821 on: December 25, 2019, 02:40:01 am »

What that just means is that there's more money around than actual demand. Current inflation (and GDP growth) in the USA is around 2%, and net investment is in line with that.

Net investment only goes up when consumption does, how much extra cash investors has is completely unrelated, unless there's a shortage of capital.

If someone has billions of dollars lying around they don't spend it on building hundreds of sock factories, unless there is in fact a shortage of socks. Sure, they could do that, and start a sock-price-war and everyone could get really cheap socks, but the investors would lose all their money, plus send everyone else in the industry broke, so they wouldn't do it in the first place.

So the problem isn't that fat-cats aren't pouring their excess capital back into productive goods, because they're building exactly as much new productive goods as the growing market can take. The real problem is that there aren't enough worthwhile (as in - will actually make a return) things to invest in, so the overflow goes into creating bubbles. bubbles are a symptom of there being excess capital, not a symptom of not enough capital aimed at productive growth.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 02:52:29 am by Reelya »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33822 on: December 25, 2019, 02:46:58 am »

The alternative is to accept that growth cannot be exponential though Reelya, and the economists would rather suck of satan than admit that.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33823 on: December 25, 2019, 12:28:42 pm »

I don't think the 1% will deliberately autoburn product. Rather, within the next 50ish years automation will replace human labor, and at that point capitalism will cease to exist. Either there will be a world of abundance for all, or the capitalists at that moment will keep all the products of automation for themselves and use their abundance to eliminate the serfs, or at least fence them out from any hope of productivity.

It won't even be a matter of wealth -- or rather, there will be only two discrete levels of wealth: Those who have or can request literally any physically plausible phenomenon, and those who have absolutely nothing. At that point, revolution will be impossible, as Georgina Bloomberg, to pick a person at random, will be able to tell her manufacturing equipment to produce an unending supply of predator drones whereas the average rioter will be armed with rebar with a chunk of concrete still on it.

Oh, but the technicians and engineers wouldn't allow that? At the point of full automation, those jobs don't exist anymore.

I guess the good news is that this will save the non-human biosphere, unless Xavier Musk decides that purging the planet entirely and leaving for Mars is a more attractive option than manually killing off all the peasants.

To reply to that is simple- we won't even make it to that. The US is already topping out. We've got about one more rally, if at all, before the whole thing shits the bed.

As for throwing it all into national debt- again, doesn't work, because we just end up right back where we started.

Even if that was the case, the material capital of present wealth already exists, and will still exist after any crash. No crash is final unless things are actually destroyed, and the 1% won't destroy their own wealth. If the 99% were going to destroy the wealth, they would have done it already.
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Iduno

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33824 on: December 25, 2019, 11:18:21 pm »

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