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[Doomblade187]

Oh, I can assure you that he means every word he says.

Unfortunately, he's not alone either.

Then take comfort in the fact that the centrist wing of the Democratic party is firmly in charge, and not giving up anytime soon, what with Pelosi passing the last attempt to take over.

[Loud Whispers]

Ipsil, what do people want Bernie to do once elected that's so bad/controversial?

-Introduce what would be a national healthcare system in all but name, by issuing a national insurance program so that everyone has free healthcare when they need access to it. I mean, there wouldn't be any state-owned hospitals yet, but when you have private hospitals and a state-run funding system, it's only one step away from state-owned hospitals.
-Stop deportations, close down detention centres
-Open US borders up to cover all asylum seekers & refugees, including a new category of climate refugees. This'll be a departure from the current US policy of carefully guarding who gets to stay in the USA longer than a holiday in vegas
-Price controls on US drugs & pharmaceuticals, capping at $200 a year for prescription courses per US patient
-Up pensions and social security
-Increase power of labour unions, restrict employer rights so it's harder to terminate wageys because they feel like it
-Free education for future students, AND cancel a shit ton of existing student loan debt. Spicy meatballs there
-Make the US energy grid 100% renewables energy, somehow integrate fossil fuel reliant communities into literally anything else.

Besides the people who disagree whether any of these are desirable goals, the main controversy would be the pricetag or whether the goals are overambitious or too socialist

[Loud Whispers]

Oh, I'm no centrist in terms of policy. Bernie winning would be just fine as far as I'm concerned.

It's when it starts turning into throwing out democracy to beat "the enemy" that I start to object.

The worst part is that they aren't even wrong to want to. This is what the collapse of cooperation looks like. There's no coming back from it.

You guys recovered from 1 civil war, you can probably recover from 1 uncivil flame war

[Loud Whispers]

I would implore you to stay, if only because disagreement without compromise is still vastly preferable over uncomprising agreement

[Doomblade187]

Right, but to what end? It's not like there's a debate here. There's just yelling in the hopes that one side eventually backs down, so that the other can declare victory and move on. The only good that comes of my posts is that they work nicely as a punching bag. There's not even much a point to complain about that, either- "if you don't want to be attacked, don't say anything."

The reason I avoid social media is to avoid the endless sea of vitriol and political scorn that's commonplace. Unfortunately, that means avoiding here, too.

Tbh, your posts aren't really punching bags?

The few remaining right wing posters is true for, bbut I'm sorry if it feels that way for you. I want this forum to remain relatively inclusive - all of us do.

[Naturegirl1999]

It’s good to have debate, without debate, new ideas can’t be molded. I don’t think your posts are punching bags.

[Trekkin]

Right, but to what end? It's not like there's a debate here. There's just yelling in the hopes that one side eventually backs down, so that the other can declare victory and move on.

While I agree with you that the level of discourse has broken down completely, I don't think anyone's hoping the other side backs down so much as unilaterally deciding that nobody opposed to them is worth listening to and skipping right to gloating about how they've declared themselves the winner. Stripped of their bitterness and sarcasm, the majority of posters at either ideological extreme are saying this: "I thought everyone but me sounded stupid yesterday and I thought so again today, so HA! I told you so." The rest is mostly increasingly tired edgelord shitposting leavened with the usual ultracrepidarian error hunting by people trying to prove something to themselves.

I'm with you on leaving.

[Doomblade187]

Right, but to what end? It's not like there's a debate here. There's just yelling in the hopes that one side eventually backs down, so that the other can declare victory and move on.

While I agree with you that the level of discourse has broken down completely, I don't think anyone's hoping the other side backs down so much as unilaterally deciding that nobody opposed to them is worth listening to and skipping right to gloating about how they've declared themselves the winner. Stripped of their bitterness and sarcasm, the majority of posters at either ideological extreme are saying this: "I thought everyone but me sounded stupid yesterday and I thought so again today, so HA! I told you so." The rest is mostly increasingly tired edgelord shitposting leavened with the usual ultracrepidarian error hunting by people trying to prove something to themselves.

I'm with you on leaving.

While I am a big fan of edgelord shitposting, I will say that I personally try and actually debate on, ya know, the policy points. Which I feel most of us here do. So, stick around. We've survived the 2016 election with only a new thread and a few bans. We can do better with the 2020 election.

Edit: what I'm trying to say is, most of us who aren't loud whispers spend their time not making huge posts.

Just because the posts may seem perfunctory sometimes, please don't think that means that more thought hasn't gone into them.

[Il Palazzo]

Which I feel most of us here do.

You must be thinking of a different forum.

[Doomblade187]

Which I feel most of us here do.

You must be thinking of a different forum.

shitposting about the policies in question counts in my data. :3

[MrRoboto75]

You guys recovered from 1 civil war

did we tho

[Doomblade187]

You guys recovered from 1 civil war

did we tho

Evidence says that the Confederates never really stopped being racist. Unfortunately.

[Devastator]

TBH, with Bernie it's mostly worrying about the disconnect from the practicalities of his proposals.  I live in BC, where we have something like a 95% renewable electricity grid, but the last 5% is non-renewable for a lot of very good reasons.  Putting the goal at 100% seems like a huge waste of time, effort and money, and, imo at least, not necessary to accomplish the actual goal of such a proposal.

Same with 'zero deportations' or 'accept all refugees.'  You can have a vastly more open country that is accepting of new people while retaining decent security and monitoring, and proper refugee and immigration services are extremely useful for placement and success of migrants.  It's possible to retain an open country with good security with the right choices for personell and the right policy goals.  Saying that nobody can be deported is being too all-or-nothing.

But yeah, that's why I don't like Bernie.  There doesn't seem to be much room for negotiation with him, and his policy goals seem uncompromising to a point well beyond usefulness.  There are elements I can approve of, and things I would like to see done, but instead of picking goals that can work, he's chosen to go with ridiculous.

[PTTG??]

The leftists have been compromising for decades. Why can't the liberals ever compromise?

[Trekkin]

But yeah, that's why I don't like Bernie.  There doesn't seem to be much room for negotiation with him, and his policy goals seem uncompromising to a point well beyond usefulness.  There are elements I can approve of, and things I would like to see done, but instead of picking goals that can work, he's chosen to go with ridiculous.

That does have advantages though. If you tell twenty people you want to see 95% of them comply with X, you will get 0% compliance and twenty arguments why the other nineteen people should comply with X. If instead you demand 100% compliance, you will get 0% compliance and twenty arguments why they personally believe they shouldn't have to comply. It's easier to deal with the latter case piecemeal without being accused of playing favorites.

Plus which, politics is the only arena in which you want to ask the impossible in the hopes of getting half of it, because then everyone gets their own little carve-out to take back home to their constituents and brag about.