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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4468162 times)

Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31110 on: July 10, 2019, 01:24:45 am »

Still does not obviate the need to ensure foreign agencies with axes to grind (Russia, and more recently, China-- due to the recent tariff bullshit) cannot inflate numbers in areas to influence electoral representation in ways they find favorable.

How do you think they would do that, precisely? I'd like numbers, please.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 01:26:23 am by Trekkin »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31111 on: July 10, 2019, 01:54:00 am »

Considering that this is a means to influence the constituency of the house, (and thus to influence legislative processes), the obvious place to work would be swing states. Specific numbers would be specific to specific election years, and while the main census is only ever 10 years, there is also the ACS which is done yearly, on a rotating basis in various regions.  Russia specifically has shown a willingness and able-ness to undertake decades long projects to sow discontent and malice within populations of other nations in order to further a long term agenda. Abuse of census data to cause degredation of quality of service, and thus influence local politics to get politicians they view tractable elected is not a big stretch.

The basic exploit looks like this:

1) The area is already divided nearly 50-50 (since it's a swing state).
2) You tip the balance in favor of your desired candidate, by manipulating census representation, and getting funding directed in otherwise dumb directions. (EG, schools get built in areas that dont need them, while areas that do get shrifted--- etc.) This causes public sentiment to become poisoned.
3) You do this by having agents in the country that serve as centers for the exploit; they accept "houseguests" in the months or weeks prior to the census, and since there are no controls over citizenship status of those residing in the residence, they participate, and cannot be caught. (There is no way to verify, and catch.) They provide information that makes a certain area appear more needing of resources than it actually is, or cause the numbers to become inflated.
4) you get your desired candidates into official positions, and let nature take its course.

I do not have the resources of a foreign government; I am merely approaching this from the same kind of perspective a system architect does when approaching cyber security; A potentially exploitable hole, however small, is still an exploitable hole. Saying 'oh, that's not likely to cause a big disruption', is how you get databases with thousands of people's data leaked, or your data held hostage.

In this case, it's how you sneak in favorable candidates, and poison the legislative process.

Those two governments specifically have shown concerted interest in disrupting and manipulating state elections; It's not tinfoil hattery to express that the need to prevent that before it can happen needs to be taken seriously.

Your request for specific numbers is like a CFO wanting to know the specific chances of the meltdown bug causing a major problem, or in what ways an attacker could use it.  Until it happens, that data does not exist.


If you want analogous situations though, you can look at 1800s Kansas/Missouri history, with regard to the referendum for Kansas to be either a free or slave state. Missouri and Arkansas both (but mostly missouri) had concerted efforts involved to pack ballots in Kansas with people who were not native residents, to influence and sway the vote, due to a lack of quality control measures on assuring validity of voter eligibility, or residency.  It nearly worked then.

More recently, there was the many year long propaganda campaigns (1) (2) from Russia to sow discontent in the Ukraine prior to its annexation of Crimea. (which was done to make the annexation appear more legitimate, and to make the annexed populations tractable.)

There is also of course, the social media and fake news issues of the last presidential election, which prompted the Muller report.

If there is a potential means in, Russia seems more than willing to try it.  I would rather they did not.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 06:32:23 am by wierd »
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Zangi

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31112 on: July 10, 2019, 10:55:39 am »

We obviously need to keep the loopholes open because we are already doing our durndest to influence elections in our favor.  And that is numero uno in priority.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31113 on: July 10, 2019, 11:32:59 am »

Your request for specific numbers is like a CFO wanting to know the specific chances of the meltdown bug causing a major problem, or in what ways an attacker could use it.  Until it happens, that data does not exist.

Well, yes, and there are statistical methods for the imputation of data not already available -- and, critically, for rigorously quantifying the uncertainty accompanying those estimations. Handwaving about how everything is a totally unknown unknown is not an argument in support of your assertions, you see, so I wondered if you had anything more empirical with which to support them. (Analogies are also not proof. They're the easy half of one kind of proof.)

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt is a classic Republican tactic for preventing data-driven politics, and intellectual rigor is our best defense against them.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31114 on: July 10, 2019, 11:54:44 am »

I don't believe the census is vulnerable to Russian interference.  They could succeed in targeting specific key Americans in 2016 because thanks to swing states small fractions of the population do decide entire elections.  Census deals in numbers too large for fudging them to make the difference.  I believe each delegate represents ~700,000 people?  Its just not practical to try to influence those kinds of numbers.  Each city has its own little census operation (at least in my state) and I believe a good amount of the responses people give are literally on paper.  So hard to tamper with, and there would be evidence if anyone bothered to recount.

Edit: I actually agree that accurate data on the number of undocumented immigrants would be useful.  And I'd be especially interested in their employment status.  But... the question on the census isn't going to produce data that either party trusts and it might reduce the number of people that respond to the census.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 11:59:06 am by EnigmaticHat »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31115 on: July 10, 2019, 02:15:49 pm »

@wierd: As enigmatichat says, you're dealing with large numbers of people, so, in order to do that, you'd have to move a good chunk of people out of their own country to even marginally affect the census beyond a rounding error. It might work on a country with a smallish population, but unless it's a massive operation that is on conspiracy theory levels of complexity, it's just going to get lost in the noise of all the other factors.

@EH: Theres accurate data and then theres presenting said data accurately.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31116 on: July 10, 2019, 02:24:51 pm »

I mean we do have a problem with illegal immigration, let's be honest. It is happening and has been happening and we have entire industries that rely on it to avoid labor laws and basic human dignity. It's just not the families running from destitution and disease trying to present themselves at the border.

But I guess why focus on the ones working literal slave labor picking our vegetables and fruits? We make profit off of those and it's more fun to post useless zingers on facebook or walk around town shouting slogans than it is to stop eating strawberries.
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Grim Portent

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31117 on: July 10, 2019, 02:40:11 pm »

I mean we do have a problem with illegal immigration, let's be honest. It is happening and has been happening and we have entire industries that rely on it to avoid labor laws and basic human dignity. It's just not the families running from destitution and disease trying to present themselves at the border.

But I guess why focus on the ones working literal slave labor picking our vegetables and fruits? We make profit off of those and it's more fun to post useless zingers on facebook or walk around town shouting slogans than it is to stop eating strawberries.

That kind of sounds like an issue that would be more easily dealt with by punishing the people who employ illegal immigrants more severely. If it's economically viable to employ undocumented workers rather than documented ones who have more rights the penalties for getting caught aren't bad enough or aren't being enforced properly.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31118 on: July 10, 2019, 02:42:54 pm »

Agreed.

I worked in a restaurant once and guy came by every time they needed kitchen help and the owner just paid him to ship in some hispanic migrant workers.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31119 on: July 10, 2019, 02:45:22 pm »

The thing though is that something like 80% of it (forget the actual statistic, but it's something north of 75%) of the illegal immigration isn't from people illegally crossing the borders, that's just the most visible part, it's from people overstaying their visas. So, while Trump is focusing on the most visible, most amygylda triggering, portion of it, the larger problem is getting ignored.

What's really needed instead of just trying to 'deport all illegals', which just kicks the crisis point can down the road, is wholesale reform of the immigration system. Unfortunately, Congress can't seem to figure out a way, both in part because the loudest conservative voices yell foul whenever theres even a whiff of 'amnesty' (whatever that means anymore) and scuttle the whole thing and because polarization.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31120 on: July 10, 2019, 02:51:44 pm »

Why fix things that can be used to polarize voters in your favor?
 
You can't drum up fear against immigration if you have a working safe immigration system, and you can't drum up sympathy and outrage for a cause that doesn't exist. Both sides are rich and wield political power, and those are their ultimate goals in and of themselves. We could have a literal magic button that fixed our immigration system in an hour and both sides would find an excuse not to push it.
 
Side note: I was passionately hating everyone before it was cool.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31121 on: July 10, 2019, 03:19:20 pm »

Again, the attack vector is to cause a single state to misallocate funds. (This foments local tensions, and if used in conjunction with social media trolling and other propaganda tools, can shove important districts down desired roads)

This is because the census (which the American community survey, or acs, is a part of) is used to create that kind of planning. (What areas are underserved? Acs tells them. Is there a rigorous check on as data? Not really.

Quote

There is an insufficient GQ sample to produce estimates for these smaller areas. Data users had noticed large year-to-year fluctuations in estimates of counties, and a lack of representation of GQ sample across small areas had been documented.


The dataset for acs is smaller, but collected yearly.

https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/acs

As the fucking census page says:

Quote

The American Community Survey (ACS) helps local officials, community leaders, and businesses understand the changes taking place in their communities. It is the premier source for detailed population and housing information about our nation.

In other words, it is used for exactly the purpose I cited: to get the data needed to do proper civic planning at state and city levels.

All Russia needs to do is know when an ACS is going to be served, and then feed bad numbers. They were willing to blow over 250,000$ on funding agent provocateurs in Ukraine in a 4 week period. (It's in one of my links, if you are curious) That's a shit load of bus and plane tickets.

At the scales involved, (since as is a small sample size operation) it can successfully poison policy.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 03:36:25 pm by wierd »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31122 on: July 10, 2019, 03:54:50 pm »

Honestly, I'd be more worried about the Republicans poisoning policy than the Russians screwing with it. Especially given that the Republicans are doing it on a much larger scale and is far more consequential.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31123 on: July 10, 2019, 04:12:39 pm »

The GOP is sufficiently tact less in its OP that it makes no efforts to disguise (statistically) it's operations. Russian planning is better crafted and longer term in action. The correction the census enacted to cover the year to year anomalies was to impute an estimation against the larger sample 10 year census.  Again, since this data is regionalized for the correction, they just need local safe houses in the target areas for 11 years, target a single 10 year census, and then housekeep on the acs data.

They could then introduce skew without detection.

The GOP lacks the patience for that kind of action.

(They instead go full retard and make obviously electioneered county and district maps, just months before elections.)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 04:25:42 pm by wierd »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #31124 on: July 10, 2019, 05:05:09 pm »

More news with Pelosi and social media.

https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2019/07/10/pelosi-progressives-twitter-1405763

Apparently she's a fan of closed chambers discussion that leads nowhere instead of transparency. (You know. For unity.)
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