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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4468043 times)

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29370 on: April 05, 2019, 11:12:45 am »

@LordBaal: Who's this Abrahams guy?

Anyhow, I don't suppose we could get back to AmeriPol? Then again, the whole Venezuela and other Latin America stuff is directly tangential to AmeriPol atm.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29371 on: April 05, 2019, 11:18:04 am »

@LordBaal: Who's this Abrahams guy?

Anyhow, I don't suppose we could get back to AmeriPol? Then again, the whole Venezuela and other Latin America stuff is directly tangential to AmeriPol atm.

Exactly. It's Latin America, not Latin Asia!

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29372 on: April 05, 2019, 11:19:45 am »

Back to Ameripol you say? No, this is now the space thread!... sort of...

It's not getting a lot of press unless you pay attention to spaceflight circles. But Pence really does seem to be pushing NASA in constructive ways and their new administrator seems to be willing to rustle feathers in congress as far as certain politicians from Alabama are concerned.

This is one of the few good things I've seen come from this administration. Now, I'm willing to bet that their "Launch tests by June 2020" and "On the moon by 2024" are both scheduled precisely due to political reasons. Going back to the moon would be a huge boost for the administration. But I'm worried about it becoming a political thing, as we've already seen over the last couple of decades. Bush pushed for the moon. Obama cancelled it and largely scaled back spaceflight during his admin just putting Mars in the distant future beyond anything he'd have to deal with and let it rest.

While dems are generally supportive of NASA as an organization, I am worried that this will become a "Republicans want to go to the moon. Democrats want to focus on home." Sort of thing. Admittedly we've got our problems to deal with here, but that's never stopped us from doing more than one thing at once, and I fear if NASA's work becomes too associated with Trump it'll all be wiped clean in the next administration.

This is a cycle that's been happening since Apollo, basically. So it shouldn't be surprising. Each new admin either wants to disown a previous admin's pet project, or start up their own new project. Problem being that engineering for spaceflight is slow. Any major project is going to take more than 4 years, and often more than 8 years, from conception to implementation. The ISS was originally being designed immediately after the space shuttle plans were finalized. in the early 80s. Manufacturing started in the 90s. Launches started in 1998. It wasn't "completed" until 2011.

Apollo's full program was never fully realized due to politicians and ended right when it was getting exciting. (The Saturn V was ridiculously overbuilt and could have gotten us to Mars with the right planning and funding.) The space shuttle used the SRBs and that big orange external tank, which were originally designed as a stopgap to get the thing flying until they could get something better, for it's entire lifespan. Constellation, which was approved under W. Bush, got cancelled under Obama and we were left with a "new" design Orion and SLS instead, one of the most horrid examples of wasteful pork barrel spending I've ever seen... and really just Constellation scaled back and renamed and asked to do even more... and now scaled back again and put back on its original mission with a smaller budget and less preparedness.

It's a mess... and Washington as a whole are responsible. But the pattern here seems to be that Republicans make big overambitious plans. Democrats cancel them once they're half done. And neither side really wants to fund it appropriately anyway... except to the point where their favorite aerospace companies continue getting paid to do crap that'll probably be thrown out in another couple of elections for "The next big plan".


It's not enough to change my vote this election... but this is a big personal issue for me. We need to, as a species, get back out there. I'm hoping the whole argument will be a moot point once commercial spaceflight jumps ahead and starts selling tickets anyone can buy. But it's damned frustrating to watch something like this turned into a political tool, while at the same time it's use as a political tool is the only reason it's being given as much support as it is.


TL;DR: God damn it Pence, why do you have to like space too? We can't BOTH like it!
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29373 on: April 05, 2019, 11:30:08 am »

I've read about that with Pence saying that he wants us back on the moon by 2024 (or, in roughly five years), but NASA is going basically 'Without more funding, we won't be able to reach that goal.'

The rise of commercial/private spaceflight definetly opens up options for NASA, but they are still working on moon launch capabilities. SpaceX is the closest to it that I know of with the upcoming BFR and I'm sure others are working towards that as well., but they're all still in the late Gemini/early Apollo equivalent, SpaceX included.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29374 on: April 05, 2019, 11:39:04 am »

TL;DR: God damn it Pence, why do you have to like space too? We can't BOTH like it!
The final frontier... It's the only place where the gays can't find him.

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29375 on: April 05, 2019, 12:26:17 pm »

I've read about that with Pence saying that he wants us back on the moon by 2024 (or, in roughly five years), but NASA is going basically 'Without more funding, we won't be able to reach that goal.'

The rise of commercial/private spaceflight definetly opens up options for NASA, but they are still working on moon launch capabilities. SpaceX is the closest to it that I know of with the upcoming BFR and I'm sure others are working towards that as well., but they're all still in the late Gemini/early Apollo equivalent, SpaceX included.

BFR(Now called Starship and the Super Heavy rocket) has a LOT of work to be done. They MIGHT make the 2024 date... (currently have a planned 2023 Lunar flyby paid for by a Japanese clothes designer and crewed by artists) but I doubt it. On the other hand, SpaceX could have what they need to launch humans into lunar orbit this year if they wanted to. The Crew Dragon capsule passed its unmanned flight test and all that remains is an in flight abort test before they start putting people on it to the station. That's possible this year. They're also launching more Falcon Heavys this year as well. With the experience from those flights, it's not a big jump to putting Crew Dragon onto Falcon Heavy and heading in the general direction of the moon. Musk has already implied that's off the table as far as SpaceX's company goals, with their focus being on BFR. But with the right attitude changes in NASA and White House admin, that might come back on the table if NASA wants to pay for it. (It would likely be an exceedingly cheap mission, relative to NASA's others.)

On the other hand though, a lot of the emphasis has been on NASA technology and effort and it would be weird optics for the whole thing if they threw all that out the window and just more or less bought tickets on someone else's rocket for some astronauts for a political stunt. Admittedly... NASA buys all their rockets from private contractors, but it feels like there's a difference there that could affect perceptions.

Still.... people back on the moon within a decade? I'm happy either way.
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29376 on: April 05, 2019, 01:03:46 pm »

Luna's pretty boring, though. Aside from being a good place to take photos of our very own lovely Earth.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29377 on: April 05, 2019, 01:04:49 pm »

I'm going to express my ignorance but...why is simply getting another human being on the moon worth the expense? What scientific benefit would we gain that another quality rover couldn't get us? It seems more about PR than anything else. I get that by doing more space travel we increase the likelihood of future space exploration. But that seems like a hella expensive way to get there.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29378 on: April 05, 2019, 01:06:43 pm »

I'm going to express my ignorance but...why is simply getting another human being on the moon worth the expense? What scientific benefit would we gain that another quality rover couldn't get us? It seems more about PR than anything else. I get that by doing more space travel we increase the likelihood of future space exploration. But that seems like a hella expensive way to get there.

Imma jump on this admitted-ignorance bandwagon.

The moon is rad as hell, but what exactly do we stand to gain? I'm not saying there's nothing, just genuinely curious as to what we get out of it, specifically.
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Zangi

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29379 on: April 05, 2019, 01:22:25 pm »

It obviously ain't for the science.  More of a political / morale bent to it. 
Though, it probably helps on the technical side.
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29380 on: April 05, 2019, 01:22:49 pm »

Sweet photos of Earth, pretty much.

SpaceX want to send a bunch of artists on a lunar flyby, which seems good. Seems like something that at least has value.
Just having some astronauts land on the moon and grab rocks or whatever is cool and all, but it's not very impressive. It's something that we already made a big deal about accomplishing many years ago. I guess the problem is that the next more difficult thing after landing some humans on Luna is a bunch of super hard things.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29381 on: April 05, 2019, 01:29:41 pm »

While it is space woo, getting routine transport to the moon is required if humanity intends to ever use it as a springboard to other planets or objects.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29382 on: April 05, 2019, 01:32:39 pm »

While it is space woo, getting routine transport to the moon is required if humanity intends to ever use it as a springboard to other planets or objects.

Yeah but is that like, the stated goal? Every time they talk about it, they make it sound more like a vacation than a goal-oriented trip of any kind :(
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29383 on: April 05, 2019, 01:35:14 pm »

I'm going to express my ignorance but...why is simply getting another human being on the moon worth the expense? What scientific benefit would we gain that another quality rover couldn't get us? It seems more about PR than anything else. I get that by doing more space travel we increase the likelihood of future space exploration. But that seems like a hella expensive way to get there.

Filming an astronaut hopping around the cheap studio NASA has set up in their garage really isn't all that expensive.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29384 on: April 05, 2019, 01:36:58 pm »

pragmatically, you have two choices for this.

Expensive purposeful expeditions that are rare, or routine tourist trips that are financed by rich people with money to burn.

The latter tends to be what enables mass transit, rather than the former, because it enable economy of scale for rocket parts, fuel synthesis, launch facilities and logistics, etc...  Where otherwise all of those things are specialist markets and command high unit pricing.


"Colonize mars! --Brought to you by Coca Cola corporation and the Mars tourism bureau." is quite likely the most logistically reasonable path, even if it feels tacky.


(RE: Cheap NASA studio fake moon landing woo)

Seriously?  You know better. Stop with that nonsense at once.
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