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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4255248 times)

martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2580 on: February 24, 2017, 04:10:41 am »

Samuel isn't even a Dutch name. It's probably US spambots pretending to be Asian spambots that are pretending to be Dutch spambots.
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2581 on: February 24, 2017, 04:26:28 am »

Yep. The neocons were so blindly devoted to democratic peace theory that they attempted to force the world toward a state of greater peace by starting wars.
Alternate viewpoint: Saddamn Hussein was filling mass graves with his genocide, but the international community was too apathetic to allow an attempt to do so if it would disrupt their economies/oil, and we needed an excuse.

Seriously, he was literally slaughtering people.

To be perfectly honest I believe the death rate is a lot higher now than then. Also, about the time Saddam was really doing that he was doing US bidding in the Iran/Iraq war, and about that time USA blew up a civilian Iranian plane with 290 people on board, that was in Iranian airspace taking off from an airport on a scheduled flight.

Plus Reagan and Latin America, estimates of Reagan-backed regime deaths are in the high 100,000s. For example, 30000 were killed by US trained and backed death squads in El Salvador just in 1983 i believe, and the guy who trained that lot was actually recruited to train counter-insurgency guys in Iraq in 2004, with similar accounts of torture and mass murder resulting. And this is even before we get into things like the Contras, the propping up of Noriega then subsequent invasion etc, and the fact that Bush absolutely loves Colombia despite the fact that their army claimed to have killed 110000 from 2002-2008 (there are only 30000 rebels in the nation). The moral grandstanding doesn't add up. We supported people doing worse things even while the 2003 Iraq War was being carried out.

America still supports Colombia to this day despite the huge scandals involving trade union deaths (some years > 50% of trade unionists murdered are just in Colombia) as well as the "false positives" scandal, where they are prosecuting soldiers over murders of around 2500 people, and those are just the ones they know about. The lawsuits make up 2.5% of the Army's claimed bodycount for the time period. One example is a UN observer group who uncovered 2000+ bodies in a mass grave next to an army base in Colombia. And these are recent, i.e. mid 2000s. They said to the government "what the fuck is this?" and all they get back is "evil rebels". The UN observers believe they're actually murdered trade unionists and activists from the local region. If there's one mass grave of 2000 people, and the army got caught murdered 2500 people in another expose, then it's safe to assume there are dozens more sites like this, and many more murder cases. The 110,000 death toll starts to sound realistic.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-kovalik/us-colombia-cover-up-atro_b_521402.html
2000 civilians dumped in a secret mass grave outside a Colombian army base which also houses US advisors.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 04:54:32 am by Reelya »
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palsch

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2582 on: February 24, 2017, 04:43:54 am »

Quote from: Dan Schneider
One of the first speeches at this year’s conference challenged the media to stop referring to the alt-right as conservative.

“There is a sinister organization that is trying to worm its way into our ranks,” said Dan Schneider, the executive director of the American Conservative Union, which runs CPAC. “We must not be deceived by [a] hateful, left-wing fascist group.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/02/23/cpac-organizer-denounces-alt-right-as-left-wing-fascist-group/?utm_term=.2b41726ff9f6

...wow

Remember 2005. Liberal Fascism: Two Words Next to Each Other. Sadly SEK died late last year. I'd love new writing from him about now.

Also sadly the idea that fascism, Nazism and any other extreme ideology is naturally of the left, leaving only the currently embraced positions of the mainstream right as Real True Conservatism, is a meme that has survived. Traditionally only in bad punditry or online trolls, but it has its moments I guess.

They still gave Bannon a platform where he could say that the media is the opposition party and always wrong and that they are looking to dismantle the "administrative state". Also how close him and Prebus are. Judge that one for yourself.

Alternate viewpoint: Saddamn Hussein was filling mass graves with his genocide, but the international community was too apathetic to allow an attempt to do so if it would disrupt their economies/oil, and we needed an excuse.

Seriously, he was literally slaughtering people.

If the war was in 1988 (Al-Anfal campaign and associated attacks) or 1991 (Shia uprisings after the first Gulf war) that would be true. However, I haven't seen proof of systematic killing (outside a barbaric justice system that is still on par with many others in the region) after the Shia uprising was put down. All the mass graves discovered dated from that era. Executing an invasion that was always going to kill tens of thousands at the very least is not a reasonable response to explore mass graves of a genocide ten years ago. Not downplaying his crimes, but it wasn't like we were intervening to stop the slaughter.

The humanitarian justifications were not originally used, but rather trotted out after the original case based on WMDs started to collapse (ctrl+f "SEN. LINCOLN CHAFEE").
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2583 on: February 24, 2017, 04:59:11 am »

My main problem with the "we did it for humanitarianism" argument is Uribe's Colombia, and the fact that it's basically known as "Israel of the South" due to how much money America gives them for weapons. The Republicans were on overdrive to downplay real evidence of current atrocities there at the same time they're highlighting 30 year old atrocities in Iraq.

And don't let them forget it's "collateral damage" not "civilian casualties" if America caused it. They show nothing but callous comtempt of life if it's caused by pro-American political forces, yet expect you to believe they weep themselves to sleep over the death of every kitten when someone who doesn't like America does it. "Oh the humanity" ... I'm going to be sick because of how hypocritical these people are.

Cynically, I'd say any humanitarian outcome of a Republican venture is merely a lucky coincidence.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 05:06:50 am by Reelya »
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Flying Dice

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2584 on: February 24, 2017, 07:42:35 am »

Yep. The neocons were so blindly devoted to democratic peace theory that they attempted to force the world toward a state of greater peace by starting wars.
Alternate viewpoint: Saddamn Hussein was filling mass graves with his genocide, but the international community was too apathetic to allow an attempt to do so if it would disrupt their economies/oil, and we needed an excuse.

Seriously, he was literally slaughtering people.

Pull the other one. The U.S. spent more time backing factions that were literally slaughtering people as far as geopolitics was concerned. And, as Reelya said, removing Saddam just eliminated one of the few checks on Islamist extremists in the region.

I mean it's nice to pretend that the U.S. starts wars on moral grounds, but if you think that anyone in power gave a damn when he gassed the Kurds you're delusional.
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TempAcc

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2585 on: February 24, 2017, 08:44:28 am »

So apparently the wall street journal now agrees with Trump in regards to his opinions on Sweden's immigration policy.

I used an archived page in order for people to get past the WSJ's paywall. Also, apparently a huffpost contributor posted a very similar article, which got deleted from the site, but thankfuly it got archived before that as well.
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Sheb

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2587 on: February 24, 2017, 10:00:21 am »

So apparently the wall street journal now agrees with Trump in regards to his opinions on Sweden's immigration policy.

I used an archived page in order for people to get past the WSJ's paywall. Also, apparently a huffpost contributor posted a very similar article, which got deleted from the site, but thankfuly it got archived before that as well.

That's an opinion piece by the far-right Sweden Democrats though, not an opinion of the WSJ. More interesting to see them in the HuffPo though.
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TempAcc

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2588 on: February 24, 2017, 10:05:12 am »

Ye, while I didn't know the WSJ was now owned by Murdoch (whih kind of explains a fair bit of things actualy), its interesting to see this come up in the huffpost of all places, even if it got deleted.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2589 on: February 24, 2017, 10:28:26 am »

So Trump wants to breach the New START agreement with Russia.
The agreement has been reached under the Obama administration, and determines that the US and Russia will have the same amont of nukes, and will keep it that way for 10 years.

Currently the US have 6800 nukes, and Russia has 7000.

Trump wants to expand the nuclear arsenal so that the US has the most nukes of any nation in the world.
"I would prefer to see that no one has nukes, but we will never fall behind, and will not allow any nation, not even our allies, to have more nukes than we have".

He's literally asking for an arms race just because we gotta be #1 at everything.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2590 on: February 24, 2017, 11:28:48 am »

So apparently the wall street journal now agrees with Trump in regards to his opinions on Sweden's immigration policy.

I used an archived page in order for people to get past the WSJ's paywall. Also, apparently a huffpost contributor posted a very similar article, which got deleted from the site, but thankfuly it got archived before that as well.

Quote
When President Trump last week raised Sweden’s problematic experience with open-door immigration, skeptics were quick to dismiss his claims. Two days later an immigrant suburb of Stockholm was racked by another riot.
kek
Never bet against Sweden

muldrake

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2591 on: February 24, 2017, 11:39:32 am »

So apparently the wall street journal now agrees with Trump in regards to his opinions on Sweden's immigration policy.

I disagree both with Trump's amateurish, bungled policy based largely on xenophobia, but Sweden's "admit everyone no matter what" policy is too far in the other direction.

I think we had the balance just about right before the current buffoon came in.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2592 on: February 24, 2017, 11:53:56 am »

I disagree both with Trump's amateurish, bungled policy based largely on xenophobia, but Sweden's "admit everyone no matter what" policy is too far in the other direction.

I think we had the balance just about right before the current buffoon came in.
No you didn't, your balance was completely out of whack. It's a moot point opening your door to a couple thousand Libyans or Iraqis after blowing up their country, that's gonna do the millions left behind fuck all, and would've been better solved by either not blowing up their countries to begin with, or staying and getting the job done with regime change. All I can say is thank God that Trump has abandoned the regime change policy because it clearly wasn't working and the Neocon and Neolibs had barely done fucking up Libya and Iraq before setting their eyes on Syria and Iran. What did you guys genuinely expect would happen by killing every opponent to jihadist groups

Isn't it a bit odd to open your door to the people whose country you've just wrecked. Don't exactly think they're gonna like you
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Rofl Greece what are you doing there

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2593 on: February 24, 2017, 12:13:38 pm »

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Rofl Greece what are you doing there

I'm guessing because we have a close relationship with both countries (though things are a little strained with Turkey atm) while the two hate each other.

Also, lol this: http://www.vox.com/2017/2/24/14725950/russian-flag-cpac I don't know whether it was an innocent thing because red, blue, and white, or some kind of prank or totally intentional, but it does seems strange regardless.
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muldrake

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #2594 on: February 24, 2017, 12:28:55 pm »

Isn't it a bit odd to open your door to the people whose country you've just wrecked. Don't exactly think they're gonna like you

We certainly absorbed a lot of Vietnamese, although most of them were from the South.
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