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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4461846 times)

Shazbot

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20520 on: June 06, 2018, 12:11:52 am »

That doesn't say you're "militia" just by existing, but that you must enroll unless you are explicitly exempted.

Therefore, people who don't or won't serve in the militia have no reason to bear arms. The militia should have the right to disarm non-participants, after all the 2nd amendment is not restricting the rights of the militia, but of the federal government. Having a well-regulated militia requires that you can in fact stop disloyal people from running around with guns.

Quote from: United States Code, Title 10 (Armed forces), section 246 (Militia: Composition and Classes), paragraph (a):
"The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard."

Deal. If you'll excuse me, I'm off to take guns from women, old men, and suspected Communists.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20521 on: June 06, 2018, 12:17:53 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This sounds like an argument against a blanket ban, but that's not what I'm saying at all; I'm saying that they're too accessible. Regardless of whether the cost of a gun is increased by a policy or by the market price, people who feel a need to own a gun will balance that need against the price, and they do this already. I'm saying that the price is too low, that there are social problems being generated by widespread gun ownership and proliferation which would be reduced if guns costed more and if more of the people who bought them actually needed them.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20522 on: June 06, 2018, 12:29:47 am »

Supply restriction works because if it's harder to get a handgun, then they're less cost effective to be used in armed robberies. A criminal must weigh up the cost to get the gun, and the risks (including losing the gun, so the cost of the gun factors in twice into the equation of whether an armed robbery is worth doing) and rewards. If the black market price of guns rises then the average reward of the armed robbery is lower vs either not getting the gun in the first place or selling the gun to someone else.

It's not quite like drugs, where raising the price merely causes people to commit more crimes to get the drugs: if guns are more expensive then people won't commit more crimes to make money to afford the gun to commit more crimes, because it would defeat the purpose of committing the crimes to make money in the first place.

Making people have permits to get a gun works to reduce crime (statistically shown) because if you need a permit to get one, people probably take better care of their legal guns, reducing flows of guns to criminal bad-actors.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 12:32:20 am by Reelya »
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20523 on: June 06, 2018, 01:20:27 am »

"What are military style weapons in civilian hands for?", asks a thread full of people who have complained for years about a President being a puppet controlled by a foreign government, fretted over a racist forced-migration threat for millions of undocumented neighbors, lamented the rise of racially-motivated killings of minority youth by unaccountable police, feared the militarization of formerly civilian police agencies, contemplated the virtues of an entire reconstruction of the American economic system, and the only answer anyone has is, "shoot coyotes".

That's... that's the joke to me. The need for every citizen to have arms equal to the common infantryman under the bed is every step toward a tin-pot dictatorship that you bemoan. How much faster would your rights be trampled over if there was no fear of a general insurrection against tyranny? Every President in our history has stepped down from power at the end of his term for this very reason; very few countries can say the same, none of which are of our size.

It never fails to amaze me how the same groups who relish describing in florid terms the insuperable power of our military when advocating for more ready recourse to war are also absolutely convinced that a bunch of variably-trained and disorganized schmucks with small arms are a meaningful threat to that same military over and above the difficulties already represented by conquering their own industrial base.

Guns can be useful tools, yes. They can also be recreational equipment. They are not a meaningful guarantee against tyranny, but they are a wonderfully bright, shiny pacifier for people with no other outlet for their insecurities.

Besides, while the stereotypical Responsible Gun Owning Real American $$ Flag Eagle $$ Patriot was preparing to defend himself from a military takeover of his basement/bunker (by, presumably, deer or turkeys), he had his money given to rich people, his job given to robots, his culture roundly mocked and his brain soaked in opioids. None of this triggered armed insurrection. One wonders whether there is enough left worth taking for it ever to be likely in future.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 01:22:00 am by Trekkin »
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20524 on: June 06, 2018, 04:10:34 am »

Trump is appealing the court ruling that forbids him from blocking people on Twitter.

Here's an idea: everybody should block Trump on their Twitter.
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Criptfeind

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20525 on: June 06, 2018, 07:00:10 am »

I mean, if the people who didn't like him blocked him on twitter, that'd just achive what he wants.

What you should really do is exercise your apparently constitutionally protected right (if you're a US citizin) and go criticize and make fun of him to him on twitter.
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Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20526 on: June 06, 2018, 08:05:48 am »

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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20527 on: June 06, 2018, 08:16:48 am »

Relevant.
And if you follow the love of Monster Hunter International, some of those mercenaries were... Very special indeed.

But yeah, we've had this discussion before, it was brought up that while said insurrectionists would never win a straight fight, they would make a decent guerrilla/resistance force.
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In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20528 on: June 06, 2018, 09:34:34 am »

An insurrection like that requires that you have the general populace on the side of the rebels though.

However it also needs to be remembered that ...

Quote
France formally allied with the Americans and entered the war in 1778, and Spain joined the war the following year as an ally of France but not as an ally of the United States. In 1780, the Kingdom of Mysore attacked the British in India, and tensions between Great Britain and the Netherlands erupted into open war. In North America, the British mounted a "Southern strategy" led by Charles Cornwallis which hinged upon a Loyalist uprising, but too few came forward. Cornwallis suffered reversals at King's Mountain and Cowpens. He retreated to Yorktown, Virginia, intending an evacuation, but a decisive French naval victory deprived him of an escape. A Franco-American army led by the Comte de Rochambeau and Washington then besieged Cornwallis' army and, with no sign of relief, he surrendered in October 1781.

So, you have the British simultaneously fighting the Spanish, French and Dutch empires and being attacked in India. And somehow this is the ... story of how a ragtag band of rebels "single handedly" beat the British Empire. FFS.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 09:38:43 am by Reelya »
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20529 on: June 06, 2018, 09:35:32 am »

It never fails to amaze me how the same groups who relish describing in florid terms the insuperable power of our military when advocating for more ready recourse to war are also absolutely convinced that a bunch of variably-trained and disorganized schmucks with small arms are a meaningful threat to that same military over and above the difficulties already represented by conquering their own industrial base.

Variably trained and disorganized schmucks have given the US military (and most other major powers') their biggest problems over the last 80+ years.

Granted, I don't know anyone with a gun that'd be willing to be one of those schmucks, but as long as they're not ending up on the news in more peaceful times, I'm happy to let them exist.

I turn again to the argument that crime typically exists for the purpose of survival and without a need to commit crime for basic survival it loses much of its appeal. Exceptions exist of course, but largely we are fighting a symptom of a larger problem. A symptom that will never go away until the larger problem is fixed.

I don't fear the guns. I fear the desperate people with guns. Fix the reason they're desperate.
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20530 on: June 06, 2018, 09:50:23 am »

Miss America is nixing the swimsuit segment of their competition.

I wonder how long they will last before shutting the whole thing down due to nobody watching anymore?
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20531 on: June 06, 2018, 10:04:53 am »

They can start having obese contestants next to show that they're body-positive.

Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20532 on: June 06, 2018, 10:10:52 am »

That was sort of the point I was going for, the official history is whitewashed in favor of the patriotic version. It's not a slight on the individual people, but the whole process. It's not far off what we criticize Japanese schools for teaching about history (i.e. anyone else who promotes a point of view that's not 100% in line with the official point of view taught in the USA must be suspect).

~~~

EDIT: does anyone actually learn about guys like Rochambeau? Washington would almost certainly have been dead and buried without this guys assistance and advice.

Quote
Rochambeau marched his troops south to rendezvous with George Washington's Continental Army for a planned attack on New York City. At Rochambeau's urging, Washington abandoned the planned attack and instead they moved into Virginia to join with the French fleet of Admiral François de Grasse to trap Lord Cornwallis's British army at Yorktown, forcing its surrender in October 1781.

Yeah, so-called fucking military "genius" Washington turned out to be when you consider this sequence of events. That French dude completely saved his ass from being remember as the foolish guy who launched a doomed attack on New York.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 10:17:05 am by Reelya »
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20533 on: June 06, 2018, 10:15:02 am »

That doesn't say you're "militia" just by existing, but that you must enroll unless you are explicitly exempted.

Therefore, people who don't or won't serve in the militia have no reason to bear arms. The militia should have the right to disarm non-participants, after all the 2nd amendment is not restricting the rights of the militia, but of the federal government. Having a well-regulated militia requires that you can in fact stop disloyal people from running around with guns.

Quote from: United States Code, Title 10 (Armed forces), section 246 (Militia: Composition and Classes), paragraph (a):
"The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard."

Deal. If you'll excuse me, I'm off to take guns from women, old men, and suspected Communists.
That's the "millitia of the united states" The Constitution doesn't say "everyone in the militia of the united states", so any other millitia is just as valid. The Young Women's And Old Mens Communist Association could form a millitia and boom done.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #20534 on: June 06, 2018, 10:23:44 am »

An insurrection like that requires that you have the general populace on the side of the rebels though.

However it also needs to be remembered that ...

Quote
France formally allied with the Americans and entered the war in 1778, and Spain joined the war the following year as an ally of France but not as an ally of the United States. In 1780, the Kingdom of Mysore attacked the British in India, and tensions between Great Britain and the Netherlands erupted into open war. In North America, the British mounted a "Southern strategy" led by Charles Cornwallis which hinged upon a Loyalist uprising, but too few came forward. Cornwallis suffered reversals at King's Mountain and Cowpens. He retreated to Yorktown, Virginia, intending an evacuation, but a decisive French naval victory deprived him of an escape. A Franco-American army led by the Comte de Rochambeau and Washington then besieged Cornwallis' army and, with no sign of relief, he surrendered in October 1781.

So, you have the British simultaneously fighting the Spanish, French and Dutch empires and being attacked in India. And somehow this is the ... story of how a ragtag band of rebels "single handedly" beat the British Empire. FFS.

To be fair, none of that is mentioned in your standard history course in the US. They barely even mention the French in all of this.

Yeah, they don't focus any on the other going ons at the time, especially the others hounding the British empire, which I didn't know about. I knew of the French joining in at a late stage, but not the other stuff like the Spanish joining in on the French side and the Dutch tensions with a kingdom on the other side of the world either independently of or opportunistically attacking the distracted British.

That was sort of the point I was going for, the official history is whitewashed in favor of the patriotic version. It's not a slight on the individual people, but the whole process. It's not far off what we criticize Japanese schools for teaching about history (i.e. anyone else who promotes a point of view that's not 100% in line with the official point of view taught in the USA must be suspect).

I wouldn't say whitewashed per se, just left out the details surrounding the others ganging up on Britain, other than France.

That was sort of the point I was going for, the official history is whitewashed in favor of the patriotic version. It's not a slight on the individual people, but the whole process. It's not far off what we criticize Japanese schools for teaching about history (i.e. anyone else who promotes a point of view that's not 100% in line with the official point of view taught in the USA must be suspect).

~~~

EDIT: does anyone actually learn about guys like Rochambeau? Washington would almost certainly have been dead and buried without this guys assistance and advice.

Quote
Rochambeau marched his troops south to rendezvous with George Washington's Continental Army for a planned attack on New York City. At Rochambeau's urging, Washington abandoned the planned attack and instead they moved into Virginia to join with the French fleet of Admiral François de Grasse to trap Lord Cornwallis's British army at Yorktown, forcing its surrender in October 1781.

Yeah, so-called fucking military "genius" Washington turned out to be when you consider this sequence of events. That French dude completely saved his ass from being remember as the foolish guy who launched a doomed attack on New York.

Rochambeau? I don't remember that guy. I do remember that this Prussian exile (I forget if he was an exile or just discharged from the Prussian army) who joined Washington at Valley Forge and helped shape the army from a ragtag bunch into a more disciplined force. Washington and his army could very well have been dead without his help as well.
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