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[Dorsidwarf]

Bay12 is better about not strawmanning than most other forums, but it still happens.

On both sides of every debate, as shown in this one

[EnigmaticHat]

Bay12 is better about not strawmanning than most other forums, but it still happens.

Yeah.  I think we do about as well as we could on that issue.  Strawmanning is always going to happen on the internet IMO.  To have a healthy debate you need to understand what the other side believes.  Internet anonymity is bad for this.  Because there's no way to tie down what the other side believes unless they choose to let you.  So if someone is like "skub sucks" and that's their entire post, its almost impossible to respond to them.  If someone responds "what you skub haters don't understand is that without skub your skin is dry and flakey," then the first poster can respond with "I'm not anti-skub."  But if the response they get is "finally someone gets it!" then the first poster can respond with "hell yeah, let's show those pro-skub idiots who's boss!"  Every internet poster is basically Shrodinger's politician, not believing anything until they choose to tie it down.  So internet arguments rely on good faith.

Its why posts like "gr8 b8 m8" and nothing else should be deleted by moderators because there's no good way to respond and someone is going to be dumb enough to try.  That or downvoted into being hidden reddit style.  But then you get into the echo chamber which is also almost impossible to avoid on the internet.  Cause if you block the useless posts inevitably you'll begin blocking the unpopular ones (which happens on reddit hardcore, every subreddit has its own narrative that they'll always upvote or downvote over).

I think to have a truly healthy argument you can't come from anonymity.  But then most people I know in RL are unwilling to talk about sensitive issues unless its with people that agree with them or close enough.  Which is hard to blame them for, since those arguments tend to be painful and useless.  I guess what I'm saying is that having arguments is difficult in general.

[Pancakes]

I have to say, I think I finally get where some people are coming from regarding not wanting to post their opinions on the forums. You see, I personally disagree with this discussion regarding the US's press not being "free," albeit on different grounds (whether current press is beholden to government interests does not implicitly make it impossible for press to exist in this country that is not beholden to government interests, etc.), but I was actually hesitant about posting my thoughts on the matter knowing that I would have to defend myself for hours against a few individuals (not a "general" thing as in it's the same individuals across every discussion where this is the case, but that generally whenever there's a rather lopsided discussion on these forums, one side ends up with a few members being a bit more vitriolic) trying to dissuade me or shoehorn my opinion into something that I'm entirely not saying.

I mean, I want to voice my disagreement, but I don't want to deal with hours of having to do random research and deal with posts laden with capslock and screaming. Usually I just end up just not bothering to post as a result, and I imagine I'm not alone.

Aye, I follow closely many threads but post rather infrequently, in part for this reason

[SalmonGod]

I hope my post wasn't taken as abrasive.  I grew up in a zero censorship environment, so I throw in swear words casually without thinking anything of it.  I see it as applying mild emphasis to what I'm saying, not aggression or anything.  And I try to avoid caps, but used them in this case as parody, which I would never do if it was a poster here that I was parodying.  I can see how these things could be misconstrued.

[EnigmaticHat]

I have to say, I think I finally get where some people are coming from regarding not wanting to post their opinions on the forums. You see, I personally disagree with this discussion regarding the US's press not being "free," albeit on different grounds (whether current press is beholden to government interests does not implicitly make it impossible for press to exist in this country that is not beholden to government interests, etc.), but I was actually hesitant about posting my thoughts on the matter knowing that I would have to defend myself for hours against a few individuals (not a "general" thing as in it's the same individuals across every discussion where this is the case, but that generally whenever there's a rather lopsided discussion on these forums, one side ends up with a few members being a bit more vitriolic) trying to dissuade me or shoehorn my opinion into something that I'm entirely not saying.

I mean, I want to voice my disagreement, but I don't want to deal with hours of having to do random research and deal with posts laden with capslock and screaming. Usually I just end up just not bothering to post as a result, and I imagine I'm not alone.

Aye, I follow closely many threads but post rather infrequently, in part for this reason

Hehehe, I come and go with my mood.  I was raised to think that not voicing your opinion when people disagree with you is cowardly or weak (mostly by movies and books, where characters tend to speak freely unless they're specifically cowardly or anxious).  Usually when I first post my opinion I'm feeling fine, then if someone argues with me every post I make responding to them feels more and more like a chore.

If I'd have any complaint of Bay12, and I'm guilty of this 100%, its that we attract a certain kind of person that makes it hard to post.  Anyone remember that episode of the office where they talked about how Oscar is an "actually" person?  The idea being that two people would be making small talk and he would correct them on the facts, beginning a sentence with "actually, _______".  Our whole forum is details minded people who act like that.  Its kind of annoying having to fact check and edit for grammar a forum post that's going to be buried in a week anyway, especially if the post itself is something innocent like talking about what happened in a game or asking a question.  But then if I look at my own conduct I do that shit all the time.

Its part of our forum culture I guess.  At least I learn something whenever someone tries to talk about plumbing and 3 expert plumbers come out of the woodwork to correct them.

[Pancakes]

Yeah, it's pretty weird, but honestly it is very nice usually. I think the only thing that I don't like is that the majority of posts are made by a small number of posters. Oddly enough it relates somewhat to the current discussion in that the pressure of the environment, not an actual forum guideline/law, is what dictates conduct

[Enemy post]

Its part of our forum culture I guess.  At least I learn something whenever someone tries to talk about plumbing and 3 expert plumbers come out of the woodwork to correct them.

Actually, plumbers work with pipes, not wood.

[Rolan7]

Actually my housemate's uncle is a plumber, and recently had to install cork valves for someone with a plastic allergy.

[Frumple]

Or to put it another way, lucky plumbers work with pipes, not wood. Unlucky ones deal with more than pvc, copper, or lead. Or whatever, depending on how much of an atrocity the original installation got away with, or how much of one their boss currently is trying to get away with.

[Karnewarrior]

I'm not a plumber, but I'm making this post to explain how I think you're wrong anyway, based on my experience pretending to be a plumber in videogames.

[hector13]

Mario used to be called Jumpman, and Jumpman was a carpenter.

Checkmate atheists.

[Rolan7]

And Pacman used to be called Puckman, but he was renamed because of a Political Action Committee.

[SalmonGod]

Little is it known that Bomberman went through several names, such as Ted and Tim, before it was decided best to leave him without a real name.

[wierd]

And Pacman used to be called Puckman, but he was renamed because of a Political Action Committee.

LOL, PAC man takes on a whole new meaning when you substitute "digital wafers" and "Power pellets", with "Campaign finance", and "Political office", then view the "ghosts" in a more immaterial sense as the skeletons they keep in the closet (at the center of the maze).

I wonder if Midway games would sue if a parody like that was released.

[Karnewarrior]

And Pacman used to be called Puckman, but he was renamed because of a Political Action Committee.

LOL, PAC man takes on a whole new meaning when you substitute "digital wafers" and "Power pellets", with "Campaign finance", and "Political office", then view the "ghosts" in a more immaterial sense as the skeletons they keep in the closet (at the center of the maze).

I wonder if Midway games would sue if a parody like that was released.

Midway may not, but Trump might try to fire you.