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[Reelya]

I'm still interested in the economic impacts of all this, has it affected tourism and labour availability?

[martinuzz]

Well I guess it's good for tourism in Mexico, when the US born children come to visit their deported parents often, and spend dollars in Mexico.

EDIT: Never thought I'd live in a world where saying "Hey man, how are your deported parents doing?" would be a normal thing.

Makes me wonder though. What's gonna happen to the US born kids of the 11 million immigrants when both their parents are deported? That's gonna cost 100s of billions of tax dollars to provide child support, foster homes etc.

More technically: US could get in international trouble for that. They did sign the treaty for the rights of the child, which includes the right not to be separated from it's parents.

[PTTG??]

Well I guess it's good for tourism in Mexico, when the US born children come to visit their deported parents often, and spend dollars in Mexico.

EDIT: Never thought I'd live in a world where saying "Hey man, how are your deported parents doing?" would be a normal thing.

Makes me wonder though. What's gonna happen to the US born kids of the 11 million immigrants when both their parents are deported? That's gonna cost 100s of billions of tax dollars to provide child support, foster homes etc.

More technically: US could get in international trouble for that. They did sign the treaty for the rights of the child, which includes the right not to be separated from it's parents.

Hah, pretending that Republicans don't hate children. They'll be dumped on the foster system, which will be overstretched and have dramatically worse performance. In response, the Republicans will punish it by cutting its funding.

[Reelya]

BTW, the "criminal illegal immigrants" thing who are all rapists and murders was a clear lie. Anyone deportable who fit that description was probably already booted out or isn't easy to find. They're going after those brought here as kids who now have families in the USA because those are the "low hanging fruit" that are easy to find and catch. People's mothers and grandmothers etc. The "low hanging fruit" were never illegal immigrants who commit crimes.

On American TV they're highlighting that she had a conviction over "criminal impersonation" without telling the reason was that otherwise she couldn't have a job.

[martinuzz]

Well, yeah, if you hold to that definiton, then every single illegal worker is a felon.

[wierd]

Illegal impersonation is not victimless.

SOMEBODY is having their records and identity improperly used, without their consent, and that can have serious consequences later in life.

Say for instance, the person needs social security later, but cannot make use of it, because they have "already been using it extensively for years", etc.

There is a *LOT* of grey in that, and turning a blind eye is not sensible or just. (then again, blind enforcement is not either.)

[Reelya]

She used only the social security number, not the identity.

This is clear, because in the article about it, they mention that Jor Arpaio got her work records the SS number didn't match up, and went straight to her house and arrested her there. Clearly, the name and address she had listed on her work records were her own, because that's how Sherrif Arpaio knew where to go to arrest her, and who to arrest.

It was only the SS number that was fake, but on all the related records she used her real name and address.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/02/09/for-decades-immigration-authorities-gave-this-mother-a-pass-wednesday-when-she-checked-in-with-them-they-seized-her/?utm_term=.082d4d34feb7

The conviction stems from one of former Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio’s worksite raids targeting the Golfland Entertainment Centers, which operated several water and mini-golf parks. Sheriff’s deputies seized hundreds of employment records and later arrested García de Rayos at her house, the Arizona Republic reported. She pleaded guilty to a charge of criminal impersonation, a Class 6 felony, the lowest level.

[wierd]

That is enough for the person who's number is stolen to be refused services later.  Not victimless.


Say for instance, the person who's number is stolen is on full disability, but this woman uses the number to become a full time employee.
The disabled person now cannot claim their benefits, because on paper, their number is accumulating deposits from an employer, indicating employment.  Compare and contrast-- trying to game the system using an alias, to get full disability while also drawing a full time paycheck. Looks the same to a social security auditor.

[muldrake]

Well I guess it's good for tourism in Mexico, when the US born children come to visit their deported parents often, and spend dollars in Mexico.

EDIT: Never thought I'd live in a world where saying "Hey man, how are your deported parents doing?" would be a normal thing.

Makes me wonder though. What's gonna happen to the US born kids of the 11 million immigrants when both their parents are deported? That's gonna cost 100s of billions of tax dollars to provide child support, foster homes etc.

More technically: US could get in international trouble for that. They did sign the treaty for the rights of the child, which includes the right not to be separated from it's parents.

Heil Freedom.

[Reelya]

That is enough for the person who's number is stolen to be refused services later.  Not victimless.

But it's the system that forces people to go to those lengths just to have a normal life. You have there someone who's been in the USA since they were a young teen, almost their entire life, had a local husband and children, yet no clear process to get them cleared to work properly above board. And it wasn't just them, they had dependents who were American citizens. Either they work, or they stay under the radar because you keep them too scared to work, and tax money pays to upkeep the kids, your choice.

Now, because of this y'all deported a mother who wanted to work to support her kids, and there are now two kids without a mother. Y'all gonna be paying to support these children from tax money now.

[wierd]

I *DID* say it was grey.  Heavy enforcement is not victimless (as you rightly point out), but total refusal to prosecute is also not victimless (as I pointed out.)

To me, the proper procedure is to audit the SS benefits of the person who's identity has been fraudulently used, against the employment records of the person who was using it illegally, have the person hot-listed for fast-track naturalization, and have the SS credits transferred to the proper identity, coupled with a small but manageable fine. (THAT, in conjunction with immigration reform THAT IS WORTH A SHIT.)

[PTTG??]

I *DID* say it was grey.  Heavy enforcement is not victimless (as you rightly point out), but total refusal to prosecute is also not victimless (as I pointed out.)

To me, the proper procedure is to audit the SS benefits of the person who's identity has been fraudulently used, against the employment records of the person who was using it illegally, have the person hot-listed for fast-track naturalization, and have the SS credits transferred to the proper identity, coupled with a small but manageable fine. (THAT, in conjunction with immigration reform THAT IS WORTH A SHIT.)

Reasonable. Furthermore, I think that by that metric, both the instance and the technique is... hmm... hard to describe briefly. Overzealous? A threatening display of power? Both a prelude to something more terrible, and something terrible itself?

The United State's long history of fairly reasonable behavior leaves us few discursive tools to describe rising tyranny.

[martinuzz]

The woman already spent half a year in jail for the false papers. Deporting her now because of a crime she committed years ago and was punished for is a ne bis in idem. I believe a good lawyer should have her back in the US in little time.

[wierd]

Did she become a citizen in that time, or was she an imprisoned foreign national?

[martinuzz]

Did she become a citizen in that time, or was she an imprisoned foreign national?

Don't know, must assume the latter though since she's being deported now. Can't deport a citizen.

From the article I linked earlier:

At that time, while Lupita was in detention and the family was trying to get by without her, community organizers were fighting for Lupita’s release. The family leaned heavily on Puente Movement, a local grassroots group that networks immigrant families, attorneys, and allies to pressure for the release of those caught up in Sheriff Arpaio’s raids. Lupita was convicted for using a fake social security number – a felony. Felony convictions can lead to deportation – but Puente agitated for Lupita’s release, and won.

If they had wanted to deport her, they should have done so in 2009. But they didn't. Doing that now is a ne bis in idem violation. I don't believe her being citizen or foreigner matter for that.