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[wierd]

1) It is NEVER ok to "Silence" anyone, no matter how completely and thoroughly one dissects and disproves what they have to say. The proper thing is to dissect and disprove what they have to say, then allow them another chance to speak. (Failure to do so results in dogmatism, despotic censorship, and worse.)

Never silence anyone.  Let them chant while you spend time and money researching their beliefs and finding effective, if complicated, counter-arguments.  They wouldn't see that as "the weakness" core to their beliefs.

And once you do respond, surely that amount of attention won't legitimize their cause.  In-depth arguments, especially from the government, will definitely convince these mobs to stop and think.

There's a reason that markets are paused when crises happen, and there's some discourse that is literally poisonous and viral.  Because humans brains do not act rationally when we're stressed...  And there are a lot of very stressed people right now.  It is summer in Paris.  It is the best of times, it is the worst of times.

This isn't about liberals vs conservatives, it's about vicious hate groups infesting a respectably incorrect political party.  Have we forgotten how hard the Republicans fought against Trump, up to the very end?

And yet the irony of how Galileo spent the rest of his life under house arrest sails right over your head.

No thanks, I would rather they feel legitimized in their illegitimate positions, than open the door to a new dark age. Thanks.

[Rolan7]

Galileo was appreciated after his time.  I'm not saying to delete records.
Also, that was hardly the French Revolution as I was alluding to.  Very different circumstances.

[wierd]

This, coming from the guy who told me point blank that even a single day of further waiting for improvements in gay rights was intolerable.  /s

[EnigmaticHat]

No side of our political spectrum is being put under house arrest by a religious organization*, so Galileo seems a bit irrelevant to this conversation.

*thanks to Scientology, this isn't even a true statement

[wierd]

EH--

The practice of institutional silencing of "wrong think" is *EXACTLY* what put Gallileo under house arrest. It is *VERY* applicable. That you cannot see or understand this speaks volumes, and that you want an exact 100% match speaks volumes to your dis-ingenuousness.

[Rolan7]

I spent a lot of this week listening to Defcon talks from over the last 10 years (by preference, there were more).  There are some scary limits on demonstration, especially in "sensitive" areas...  but information is very free, nowadays, in America.

"Wrong think" in the supposed "liberal" sense is normal think in much of America.  It's not exactly banned, and neither should it be.  I simply mean that, maybe, some *extreme* ideas ought to be curtailed.  Proven memetic viruses.  Germany agrees.  Maybe they were too close to the issue.  Maybe they were close enough?  *I* can't say, but I think it's a reasonable measure when things are as hot as, say, the French Revolution.

[EnigmaticHat]

EH--

The practice of institutional silencing of "wrong think" is *EXACTLY* what put Gallileo under house arrest. It is *VERY* applicable. That you cannot see or understand this speaks volumes, and that you want an exact 100% match speaks volumes to your dis-ingenuousness.

So who is being institutionally silenced here?

[wierd]

EH--

The white nationalists are, or at least, you are advocating for them to be.  The irony of the situation is profound, considering the origin of the following historical statement:

    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

The time to stop that kind of bullshit is before it starts. That is why I am saying you should not silence the white nationalists in this way-- and should instead just completely and utterly destroy their positions with pure reason, and verifiable facts-- then allow them another chance to speak.

I am not discreetly supporting white nationalists, and I do not think that what they are saying is OK--  For a better appreciation of my position, look at this famous quotation.

[Rolan7]

"I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It"
Not sure why you made that a link, but it does deserve impact.
Ideas should be preserved.  The idea that some races are inferior should always be remembered as something that people thought.  It's important to our American history (IIRC, Weird).  We should remember it, and be like the great man, and entertain the idea without [necessarily] accepting it.

These are dire times, though.

[RedKing]

Oh, if only there had existed logical philosophers in the 1930's! We could have been spared the horrors that awaited, if only someone had argued Hitler into submission!

[Strife26]

Oh, if only there had existed logical philosophers in the 1930's! We could have been spared the horrors that awaited, if only someone had argued Hitler into submission!

If only there had been communists to fight the nazis in the streets, we could have been spared the horrors that awaited.

[RedKing]

Oh, if only there had existed logical philosophers in the 1930's! We could have been spared the horrors that awaited, if only someone had argued Hitler into submission!

If only there had been enough communists to fight the nazis in the streets, we could have been spared the horrors that awaited.

ftfy

More to the point, Antifa isn't the RFB. They're not arguing for any particular ideology to be implemented, other than "fuck Nazis". Lot easier to get people on the side of that.

[wierd]

Redking:

Faulted premise.

My counter, "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink."

You can shout from the rooftops that something is wrong, but there is nothing you can do to make people act. Ironically, much like this very conversation.

To wit-- the reason Hitler still rose to prominence, despite intellectual outcry-- is exactly the same reason why your opinion is unchanged by my own intellectual arguments against it.

The solution is to teach people how to think, so they know that what they are hearing is the truth-- rather than clinging more tightly to belief and bias.


Your argument can be directly flipflopped to support the original nazi cause, with minor edits.  Observe:

If only there had been enough nazis to fight the zionists in the streets, we could  have achieved our grand vision.

[Trekkin]

The solution is to teach people how to think, so they know that what they are hearing is the truth-- rather than clinging more tightly to belief and bias.

No, because then they stop listening. When people think they know how to think, they don't go questioning their beliefs. They go learn how to give their existing biases an intellectual veneer, usually by resorting to needlessly big words for very small concepts. They value how to argue correctly over what is being argued; further, they decide that they are the sole arbitrator of the correctness of an argument. They seek out snappy quotes and smart-sounding turns of phrase and then use them to call everyone else an idiot on the Internet.

Teaching people "how to think" doesn't mean they discard their beliefs. It just gives them new ones: they believe they're smart because they sound smart to themselves, and they believe that only people who sound smart can possibly have anything worth listening to because now they sound smart and the people they don't like don't. It's a high-minded ideal and it sounds very grand to say, I'll grant you, but all people will ever learn from being taught how to think is how to be a snottier, more stubborn kind of ignorant.

[EnigmaticHat]

Redking:

Faulted premise.

My counter, "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink."

You can shout from the rooftops that something is wrong, but there is nothing you can do to make people act. Ironically, much like this very conversation.

To wit-- the reason Hitler still rose to prominence, despite intellectual outcry-- is exactly the same reason why your opinion is unchanged by my own intellectual arguments against it.

The solution is to teach people how to think, so they know that what they are hearing is the truth-- rather than clinging more tightly to belief and bias.


Your argument can be directly flipflopped to support the original nazi cause, with minor edits.  Observe:

If only there had been enough nazis to fight the zionists in the streets, we could  have achieved our grand vision.

It wasn't zionists that were hunted down during the holocaust.  Are you seriously going back in time to say "what about those jewish extremists?"