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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4235203 times)

redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1335 on: February 07, 2017, 10:18:42 pm »

So what kind of consequences would making the Fed powerless have?

The Articles of Confederation come to mind.
specifically the part about how they were so ineffective they were completely thrown out.

what the republicans actually mean by letting the states do things is letting the republican states not do them.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 10:21:02 pm by redwallzyl »
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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1336 on: February 07, 2017, 10:29:25 pm »

A powerless federal government means that states that net pay taxes (New York, New Jersey, California, Washington, etc.) would have no reason to stay. States that benifit from Federal services more than they pay in taxes would find themselves in economic free-fall.
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uber pye

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1337 on: February 07, 2017, 10:58:44 pm »

A powerless federal government means that states that net pay taxes (New York, New Jersey, California, Washington, etc.) would have no reason to stay. States that benifit from Federal services more than they pay in taxes would find themselves in economic free-fall.

well people are calling for a Cal-xit  :P
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1338 on: February 07, 2017, 11:01:19 pm »

It also helps that the American thread isn't strongly policed... While the Brexit is (Agree with them or else!) so anyone with an opinion is pretty much staying out because otherwise they have to read paragraphs upon paragraphs of retorts and insults.
See? I'm not crazy. Neo sees it. We need strong leadership in these dark times.
.... Page 57.  Still, we almost have 1,500 posts.
it says 94 pages for me.
ppp is a thing.
I don't know what that acronym stands for, but I'm going to assume it's socialist in intent and thus automatically unamerican. Shame on you TBF, shame on you.
A powerless federal government means that states that net pay taxes (New York, New Jersey, California, Washington, etc.) would have no reason to stay. States that benifit from Federal services more than they pay in taxes would find themselves in economic free-fall.
Meanwhile certain issues on a state-level would suddenly become very relevant, like the power-difference between NY State and NY City. NYC is the heart of the state; it makes most of the money, has most of the people live there or around there, and is the reason most people have heard of New York, period. And yet the City has much less influence in Albany than you might think; the Senate, for example, is run by a coalition of Republicans and "independent democrats". In such a scenario, those faultlines would take on massive importance.
Some other interesting stuff could also happen:
...
-quality of life begins diverging between states.
Could happen? um, I hate to break it to you, but... that already happened.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1339 on: February 07, 2017, 11:06:21 pm »

"posts per page"

Or the "people's populist party" if you like. Their strongman leader controls the number of posts per page with an iron fist.

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1340 on: February 07, 2017, 11:23:21 pm »

So what kind of consequences would making the Fed powerless have?
All sorts of crap. The exact results involves so many variables it's not really worth considering much of the particulars. Still, some of the bigger things you have to remember:

Most of our states are not particularly self-sustaining; even the ones that are net exporters in terms of finances or physical output rely quite a bit on interstate and international commerce in one realm or another of their industry and infrastructure. Remove the framework existing and enforcing the means to trade between states and across borders (i.e. the federal government and specifically the portions related to trade) and pretty much everyone is fucked. How hard varies by region, but the possibility of any individual state (or, frankly, any political entity of meaningful size on the planet) benefiting much on the net from a federal dissolution (in practice if not name) is basically nil. Trade and whatnot could be reworked, settled into new paradigms and whatnot, but... you'd be looking at decades. Possibly centuries. Before all that got sorted out. And in the meantime everything works worse; shipments have harder times getting around, there's next to no surety of encountering one set of business/legal conditions in one area as another (i.e. investment conditions in what used to be the US goes to complete shit. Have fun with that.), and on, and on, and on. The concept of the fed dissolving is one that would have any sane businessperson waking up screaming in terror during the night. Similarly any and every one that deals at all with anything involving logistics, infrastructure, etc., etc., etc. Nightmare doesn't even begin to describe it.

Education standards would be fucked. There would be no accreditation that was not regional, and basically none of those could be trusted. Existing accreditation would effectively be nulled. Communication between schools -- i.e. for transferring, moving, etc., etc., etc. -- would be buggered in about seven thousand different ways. Eventually things might settle down on that front, but you'd either be looking at approaching-50 state contracts or states that were just complete garbage and had next to no capability of sending their people elsewhere (you want to know how many colleges are going to spend notable effort bringing people from a state with a failed education system up to par? Ha.) or digging themselves out of the hole.

Corollary to the first, transportation would be fucked. You could not be assured you could go across state borders without facing immediate legal consequences. Your license would be shit, your tag would be shit, the standards you were previously operating under would be shit and fluctuating even harder than they already do every few dozen miles. Moving would now be equivalent to goddamn immigrating. Long distance transportation would have to deal with even more legal and procedural hoops than they already do. Interstate or cross country transportation lines (highways, railroads) would now face radically shifting conditions in regards to funding and maintenance. You now have (at least, who knows if some states would splinter under the conditions ensuing) 50 different entirely distinct flight zones, most of which do not have much experience with treating their own airspace as singular. Good luck. Also none of that is exhaustive, of course. There'd be whole hosts of other crap going down on that side of things.

Infrastructure would be fucked. Any area that requires resources or connection to other areas -- like water, electricity, communication lines (telephone, internet, etc.) -- would now have to renegotiate pretty much every aspect of what they previously did, and gods help them if there's more than two state actors involved or one of the ones they need to work with is now belligerent. Most of them would no longer have the same degree of financial, material, or human resource support. You would shortly see power outages, water quality and access failures, broken communication lines, and so on. These might clear up, eventually, but it would not be short, it would be painful, and it would be expensive in an environment where every aspect of economy just got kicked in the reproductive organs with a spiked rocket-powered pneumatic repeater boot.

Healthcare would be fucked. Good luck maintaining even a facsimile of a sea to sea baseline for medical professions. Good luck actually maintaining any sort of database or register or something like it that tracks what sort of background and qualification any particular person claiming to be a medical professional has. Good luck keeping various regional medical issues from spreading. Good luck doing anything continent wide (such as HIV outreach, medical research, and on, and on, and on). Good luck knowing what happens to you if you're in a different area and shit goes down. Good luck with that previous system of healthcare that was keeping millions of our elderly (among others) from straight up dying. Take all the good luck you can get, you're going to need it.

... and honestly, now I'm tired of trying to list just the major ways we'd all be screwed by it. That ain't all of it, I've just run out of steam. Imagine if all of europe had been in the EU for a couple centuries, had no or next to no previous precedent tailored to the individual countries to fall back on in regards to cross-border interaction, had significantly higher degrees of codependency, and decided, "Nah, let's just junk this shit."

There's a (lot of) reason(s) why, while I may be able to follow the reasoning and ideological basis behind the GOP perspective on governing, I am not even remotely a republican. Even if I had any other ideological crosstab going on with the other aspects of their platform, that one alone, the insistence and pursuit of a minimized federal government, is something that as far as I'm concerned is equivalent to national-scale suicide. It would end this chunk of north america as an economic or political power.

People that think the effects would be relatively small or even not frankly disastrous do not realize how interdependent our states and the systems within them are, nor how dependent that interdependence is on the federal framework, nor how poorly prepared our states are to even consider fracturing from a logistical/economic/etc. standpoint. Absolutely huge swaths of our lifestyles and economic and legal frameworks are incredibly reliant on the basic concept of being able to go from one place to the next and face relatively similar conditions. Of certain laws being enforced in one place largely they same as they are in another, in certain standards being met in regards to infrastructure/construction/etc. between one side of a state border and another, and so on, and so forth. Among all the other stuff it does, that is the federal government. Take that away and you effectively rip out the core of american political systems, economic systems, infrastructure systems, education systems, and continuing onward until you've covered just about every goddamn thing this country and its constituent parts does. You'd have to rebuild the whole thing from something that's so close to scratch the practical difference is academic, and you'd have to rebuild it something approaching fifty different times, each of them in relation to fifty different political entities that are also building in relation to fifty others.

tl;dr: Shit is the worst juju. Or close enough it probably doesn't matter.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1341 on: February 07, 2017, 11:38:36 pm »

Some other interesting stuff could also happen:
...
-quality of life begins diverging between states.
Could happen? um, I hate to break it to you, but... that already happened.

That was badly worded. Basically, there are already large differences (compare NYC with the rural south with the midwest with LA), but it's nowhere near as bad as it could get - people almost always have access to healthcare, clean water, electricity, etc.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1342 on: February 07, 2017, 11:39:51 pm »

The US government being dissolved or rendered powerless would change the face of global politics forever.  Hell, it would physically change the face of the US.  Highways would fall into decay due to complicated politics of who pays for an essential road that crosses several states, any major research centers, military bases, power plants, monuments, parks, etc. that exist for the benefit of the entire country rather than the state that hosts them would no longer be able to be maintained.  The sudden massive shift on so many levels of how our country functions economically would alter our cities forever.  Which cities are "in demand" would change massively as the delicate balance of interstate trade and economics is shattered forever, likely causing a period of massive and unpredictable migration as many cities go the way of Detroit.

In short, many man-made structures in the US would fall into disuse and eventually be demolished, and many cities would change in size one way or the other.  The fed becoming powerless would be on a short list of political events in human history that would be visible from space, over a relatively short period of time.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1344 on: February 08, 2017, 12:02:29 am »

The Republican party is silencing Democrats.

For context what is the exact grounds for this?

It is a law of some sort... but what does that law entail and why does it exist?

Is it so that current administrations cannot harass people for their past political decisions or something?
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1345 on: February 08, 2017, 12:02:44 am »

Holy shit.  Silencing congressmen like that is, AFAIK, essentially unheard of, but on top of that they're going to do it for "impugning" on someone's character?  Really?  After everything they said and did when Obama was in power?

What a disgrace.

Edit: There is no law for this.  I mean if a senator were to just stand up and say nothing but a single swear word repeated for five minutes, sure, they could be asked to leave.  There are rules in congress for who can speak and when.  The proceedings are supposed to have some dignity and order to them after all.  But there is absolutely no legal framework or precedent for gagging senators that are going about their duties.  This is a ludicrous butchering of how our government is supposed to operate.

Double edit: To be clear, this is a fucking nomination hearing.  Nothing is more relevant here than the nominee's past.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 12:10:18 am by EnigmaticHat »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1346 on: February 08, 2017, 12:13:22 am »

There was that time a bunch of Congressmen got in a fistfight, as well as the caning incident, but that was all 19th century.

Countdown until the ceremonial mace receives first blood starts now.
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Neonivek

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1347 on: February 08, 2017, 12:13:39 am »

So basically they made the rule that you cannot bring up their past... intentionally because they knew they would bring up their past?

How long was this a rule?
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1348 on: February 08, 2017, 12:26:29 am »

Its not a rule.  There is no justification for this legal or otherwise.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread: Trump Immigration Boogaloo edition
« Reply #1349 on: February 08, 2017, 12:45:16 am »

It's a bit of a weird situation. McConnell claimed she violated the Senate rules, but did not specify what rule that was unless "impugning character" is actually in there somewhere.

Sadly, when the chamber sets its own rules and a majority has control, this is possible. But this certainly is extremely unusual.
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