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[Lucus Casius]

I'm not sure Null's made it clear why they're so opposed to amnesty.  Maybe I've missed it?  Or was it just the criminal thing?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Okay, nice points, I agree with most of this, except the one I have made glaringly apparent.  This point is the one that makes this unworkable.  There are not enough personnel, courts, lawyers, nor is there money to pay for them all.  This is why I say we would have to stop all attempts at legal immigration, if we don't take the time and devote the resources to this point then we will just be perpetuating the current state of affairs.

There is no question that freezing immigration would cause no end of problems, but I can see no other way to actually fix this without doing so.

Like I said, no good solutions.

Amnesty is a long and painful solution but an immigration pause is, as I put it, physically impossible. It'll only boondoggle illegal immigrants, might crash the economy, and could quite possibly require a military takeover of the southern border.

Your reluctance to amnesty in the face of that is kind of confusing. Decades is better than never.

[NullForceOmega]

Amnesty didn't work in 1986, it hasn't worked since, and it won't work now.  All it does is cause the same problem to repeat itself, hence why we are at this point again.  I don't have a better solution, and as far as I can tell no one else does either.  I'd just vastly prefer fixing the underlying issue to the feel-good Band-Aid of amnesty.  I'm not going to get what I want, and it's unlikely the Band-Aid people are either.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Amnesty would have worked fine if USCIS had been funded and legal immigration in general had engagement from hopefuls instead of determined dismissal. It's not a feel-good, it's a necessity. Having to repeat it because we only treated the symptom last time is unfortunate, but that's where we find ourselves all the same.

[smjjames]

I'm not sure Null's made it clear why they're so opposed to amnesty.  Maybe I've missed it?  Or was it just the criminal thing?

He's trying to make the point that at this point in time, with so many illegal immigrants (we don't have precise numbers, but some estimates are 11 million), the logistics and funding are insurmountable.

Amnesty would have worked fine if USCIS had been funded and legal immigration in general had engagement from hopefuls instead of determined dismissal. It's not a feel-good, it's a necessity. Having to repeat it because we only treated the symptom last time is unfortunate, but that's where we find ourselves all the same.

I suspect that we can all agree that funding USCIS properly, perhaps more than it needs, and modernizing would go a long way towards helping fix the problems.

[Egan_BW]

Even if we did a perfect overhaul of legal immigration that solved all if its problems, we would still have the illegal immigrants who are here now. Sometimes treating the underlying cause isn't enough to make the symptoms go away. You need to deal with both. Thankfully, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive here.
Unthankfully, we probably won't get a solution to any problems at all out of the current government. I wouldn't actually mind being proven wrong about this, congress.

[Lord Shonus]

The only way to "fix the immigration problem" permanently is to either conquer the planet or kill off everybody that isn't already in your country. The harshest border controls will not keep people out. The most draconian ID sweeps will not allow you to find everybody. The Soviet Union had illegal immigrants. China has illegal immigrants. North Korea has illegal immigrants.

Amnesty WORKED in 86 - it took decades for the problem to reach a point where it becomes an issue. Only the completely uninformed, or politicians exploiting the race card, will tell you anything different.


The only way to significantly reduce illegal immigration is to make legal immigration as easy and painless as possible. Which we could easily do if we took the mountain of manpower and treasure that we currently waste on border control (we'll always need some, to cut down on smuggling and banditry, but after a certain point there's no benefit) and spent it on the immigration system instead. But that doesn't allow congresscritters and officeseekers to exploit tribalism to drum up their numbers, so it is unlikely to happen.

[Greiger]

Alternatively, we could end illegal Mexican immigration forever by annexing Mexico. That's only slightly less feasible than mass deportation, and probably more humane.

We did that once.  Then we told the mexicans living in the previously mexican owned land that they were illegal immigrants and to GTFO our country.

[misko27]

Perhaps instead of looking at illegal immigration, we should look into reforming the legal immigration system. There are stories all over the place about how the legal immigration system takes so long.

People say this, but there's no real appetite for it anymore. we tried that a few years ago if you recall, and the House of Representatives just let it die. Congress could try again, but I don't think there is enough agreement: Republicans are split several ways, Democrats are sorta United but certainly aren't interested in compromising with Trump, Trump is out there playing the chaos game and throwing wildcards out, etc. Example A: Trump has said he wants a DACA fix that 'makes everyone happy'.

See? Actively wishing for the impossible.

[Egan_BW]

Can't say I wouldn't be interested in seeing what the US trying to take over the whole world looks like. Not like, to live in that world, but just to see how it end up.

[NullForceOmega]

Yes, even if the system were made functional we would still have to deal with the present illegal population, I am not arguing against that.  I am arguing that without those fixes the problem will just keep happening, and will continue to be a drain on manpower and resources.

I'd really like to see a solution that actually fixes the problem and finds a way to alleviate the current condition, I just don't agree with blanket amnesty, it's like saying, "Sure, come on and completely ignore the laws of the nation you're trying to gain entry to, we'll just give you a get out of jail free card in a few years", which, to me, is like saying that those laws are irrelevant.

[Trekkin]

Just out of curiosity, NullForceOmega, do you have a specific figure for the monetary cost of processing the current population of illegal immigrants? Or for the man-hours required? I'm curious how they compare to the costs of actually purging the country per the standard far-right line.

[Pancakes]

Shit, let's have immigrants be the border patrol as part of their citizenship test /s

[smjjames]

Perhaps instead of looking at illegal immigration, we should look into reforming the legal immigration system. There are stories all over the place about how the legal immigration system takes so long.

People say this, but there's no real appetite for it anymore. we tried that a few years ago if you recall, and the House of Representatives just let it die. Congress could try again, but I don't think there is enough agreement: Republicans are split several ways, Democrats are sorta United but certainly aren't interested in compromising with Trump, Trump is out there playing the chaos game and throwing wildcards out, etc. Example A: Trump has said he wants a DACA fix that 'makes everyone happy'.

See? Actively wishing for the impossible.

Yeah, I saw that remark Trump made. Might as well just say straight out "Figure something out, give it to me, and I'll sign it." He just wants something he can crow and brag about.

[Egan_BW]

So basically, there only seems to be one actually-kinda-doable solution that anyone in this thread can think of, but NullForce doesn't like it.
And no, kicking them all out isn't an option. That just seems altogether likely to fail horribly.