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[Persus13]

Again, Warvets could be dopps, and its a good way to fakeclaim too. Also doll, might want to mention the kook claims too. I'm also in favor of keeping DA alive at least until tomorrow because if his claim of telepath is true, we can get some use out of that. Plus if we set an inspect target for him and he fails to deliver, we can just lynch him then.

Persus13
It is an absolute imperative that you claim.
This goes for Leafsnail as well, but much of that need is ameliorated by the fact that I've got no real problem with lynching him at present. I'll explain why in detail in Part 3.

I'm a Heroic Guard. I didn't do anything N1 (because I'm not protecting someone I don't trust). I protected Tiruin N2. As for whether Tiruin could be lying, there's multiple possible places for error (considering its she said he said), but we haven't cleared up whether its possible for Shakerag to have gotten a survive result on me because Meph isn't around. As it is, I trust Tiruin.

Survivors are the equivalent of dopps for most mechanical purposes (actually they're worse, since they could have killing items).
One thing in particular which is noteable about survivors is that they will show up as having a survive result, and cannot be found by ATD.
In contrast, War Vets will show up as having a kill result.
Since there are potentially unlimited survivors masquerading as war vets, as well as Leafsnail and Persus13, this is the largest single impediment to solving the setup today.
A tough Doppleganger would also cause some concern, but it would confirm it's existence once it kills a war vet.

But if we find and kill the last two dopps, we win, regardless of how many survivors there are. Unless the dopps know who survivors are, they can't blackmail survivors into helping them. Dopps are outnumbered at most 8 to 2 at this point, so worrying about survivors is a pointless distraction at this point in the game.

Meph: What actions could a guard role take to show up as survive to a Telepath?

[Tiruin]

So getting this thread to load took...quite some time for some strange reason o_O (Yay internet! Or more my connectivity and time in doing so x.x)

Skipping over from my last post to here...(Doll's big reads/list of info), I'm really curious how all that info got amassed and the content/context of how people trusted PMs. O_o Anyway, the ATD lasts as long as the target is alive as far as I know, barring abductions and blocks and anything else that prevents the person from doing stuff.

The following is ordered by descending recentmost post # rather than who.

You've accepted webadict and myself as town, so you can be the official welcomer for TDS and hector13.

Um...welcomer?

Persus13
So you're a cutting edge scientist?
PM your tech to Tiruin, myself, webadict, and hector13.

Um...where did this bit come from if in Persus' post later on he admitted to be the Observant Guard that I beleive someone hinted back in the thread (can't easily shift back to those pages, somehow loading forever >_>)

Leafsnail has conveniently outed himself as the survivor, so you're approaching town as it stands.
Leafsnail
You are the survivor.

Outed?
...Did I miss something that there was an implied Alien around? He claimed Kook back there alongside another. :O

[...]
Players could stop PMing things to me, but I don't think anyone other than you and I are prepared to actually commit to the sort of slog that kind a a methodological game would present, which I base mostly on that fact that they have PM'd so much to me.[...]

I haven't had a PM since. And you get all the mail.
What's your secret! (Although if I've to infer from the times you PM'd me, it'd include a batch of kindness and respect) @_@

This feels like some kind of Trump-esque "post-truth" strategy from doll. Like if you say something often and forcefully enough people will believe you even if you have no basis for saying it.

Doubtful From another country waaay halfway the world away, doll isn't sounding at all like the post-truth ideology. He's not yelling SO LOUD AND SO REPETITIVELY that people will miss...quite what's being posted and can't be taken down.

Don't PM anything to doll or webadict. They are not clear in any way.

Townie
Enchanter
Survivor
Scientist/Alien with a Double Mind Shield

If this is accurate then either Tiruin or Persus are lying. I guess it's possible that Persus is a survivor, although that would be a very stupid claim.

OK I'm lost at this point because this post and Doll's post was before Persus claimed O_o

Doll has a nice post here and...this is a lot of info going through PMs, was the first feeling I had.

Reminds me of this AWESOME DF themed mafia game that I can't forget where people PM'd the umpf out of people, and had Solifuge in mortal combat with another dude over who was the kid Fun thing here is seeing it implicitly in doll's posts and how he words his ideas to others. In the least, most apparently with Doll.

Also woaaaaa Leafsnail said fighting words O_O

@doll and @Leafsnail:I am a War Vet.

I was hoping I could take one of the scum with me, but that's probably not gonna happen.

OKAY, so other than Hector13's claim (That Observant Guard) which is a bit later on a-

@doll and @Leafsnail:I am a War Vet.

I was hoping I could take one of the scum with me, but that's probably not gonna happen.

erm...

Huh.

That's funny.

Because I, too, am a War Veteran.  It's why I asked doll not to target me last night.  I have been visited by nobody either night, as I was on alert both nights and have not been roleblocked to my knowledge.

Has anyone visited TBF this game?  Because that'd be an immediate counter to this claim.

...
I'd just like to point out the humor that'd answer that question you've got there, 4mask.
But WOW Meph, that RNG Role generator. :I This game is high-powered high claims from my standpoint of not knowing actually many things about others, and the trans-American trail of mail back in the old west.

Thanks for a compiled list of roleclaims 4mask.

Lmao this is the trolliest setup ever.

This is like Paranormal 2 all over again.

And I can boop everyone on the nose, ever. \o/

But most likely dopps can do high-power claims rather than risk a claim on doing things. >_> Either that or given that roleclaimlist, there's the lynch aimed at those vets ._.

...Seeing all that about claims, I wonder if it's better to claim who has been in PM contact with whom. It's clearer on, that way.

And I really get the feels like people have been hinting in hindsight about stuff being claimed now but there may be a glitch back there I:

#479:

Because Jack AT is a cool guy and all active players could do well to emulate his spirit, I'll split this post into three parts and post them as they are finished.

Missing Jack AT since he disappeared from fillipk's game u_u He's inspiring, that much is true as a basic note on him.

Persus13 - Tiruin claims to have a (Shakeragian) telepath inspect result of survive on Persus13, Persus13 claims the result is based on his action from Night 1 alone

Shakerag didn't PM you anything?
Or anyone else?

Survivor is a scum role.

I'd rather a third-party than 'scum', technically. There's this stigma somehow that survivors are D:< to the Town and all, but scum isn't the right term as it's usually used negatively while the survivor is just 'live till someone wins'. The only time it becomes leaning or biased is when there is information about one or either team (or when it's obvious that town gets killed all the way and people are flailing around).

TheDarkStar - agent operative, has an assassination bot and a small tech I'll leave unspecified for now

Well wow :V Now we can just direct WHO TO KILL so it'd be obvious and a test of towniness and how in the world are you getting all this again once more?
TBF

...Eh, I'd rather see Leafsnail go first.

Well, he looks scummier, but I'm pretty sure that doll's plan or your plan is gonna happen anyway, so why bother explaining when I'm probably going to end up dead anyway?

While you areo n your phone, there's a lot more tension that'd have to be pushed than...just that >_>
Bother for me.

Bother for you. Bother for quite much more than the impression that hit you with these plans being brought out--nobody likes a quitter in this context

Also WHO did you compare Leafsnail to in mind (unspoken) when you voted him?

PFP. I am a townie kook.[...]

Err, yes. A kook is town.
Humor (or suspicion) aside, the only person who can actually see you through is dead as far as claimed at this post in point.

Also TDS should give both of his techs to Tiruin. We should not tolerate them going to a completely unconfirmed player like doll, or him firing off his assassin bot without confirming that it's a tradeable alien tech.

._.
I love this game [please do it and I can handle all the techs \o/]
But in all seriousness, I'll be getting back to this by tomorrow [my Tuesday] and re-browsing this library shelf of claims and posts.

Also to reiterate:

Again, Warvets could be dopps, and its a good way to fakeclaim too. [...]

I follow this heavily--t'was my first impression and I typed this post while reading up. There seems to be a pattern of consistency or familiarity [...nobody claimed a scientist though and why not?! It's not like anyone can prove you're an 'investigative/any scientist' if it's hard to re-claim], wherein war vets + guards are running amok.
In which if given details are true--there's also favor in checking WHO CLAIMED WHAT IN THE NIGHTS BEFORE.

[...]As it is, I trust Tiruin.[...]

But not with MAIL! :p
Seriously, I got no mail from anyone ever since that one night I sent y'all mail. :I

PFP

[TheBiggerFish]

Mostly compared him to DA, because that was the main dichotomy all these people had set up.

[Persus13]

Tiruin: 1. I claimed Heroic Guard, not Observant.
2. I haven't sent PMs to anyone this game, unless it was a response to something someone sent me. Namely, you and doll.
3. What exactly did Shakerag claim to you? Can you quote his PM?

[Tiruin]

Well, I'm pretty certain you're town.  And if not, what's a game without a little gamble?

I'm a Human Telepath.  N1 I got "survive" on Persus13.

Just in case I get whacked overnight.

He also PM'd me about accent funtime. With all notes out of mafia, I don't make a big deal about it or on which is a basis or otherwise--I love hearing about people and the voice is awesome. \o/
...But that's in a different PM altogether not related to Mafia.

Mostly compared him to DA, because that was the main dichotomy all these people had set up.

Is there anything else you'd like to add?

[TheBiggerFish]

....What would there be?

[Leafsnail]

PFP. If Meph confirms that a non-acting town role gives a 'survive' result that makes the setup easier to break since we can get a guard to no-action while DA scans them.

Actually let's go a step further: Meph: What result will a telepath get on a non-alert human
 war vet?

[Persus13]

Tiruin, do you have a third tracking device now? If not, why not?

Updated 4mask's list of roleclaims

And, just to compile things in one place, a list of roleclaims:
hector13: Kook Observant Guard
TheDarkStar: Agent Operative
Tiruin: Intelligence Scientist with Tracking Devices
Persus13: Heroic Guard
Deus Asmoth: Telepath?
doll: Observant Guard
webadict: War Vet
Leafsnail: Townie Kook
4maskwolf: War Veteran
TheBiggerFish: War Veteran

Of these role claims, only TDS, hector, and Leafsnail's have to be lying about their role in order to be dopps.

And last night's claims:
Leafsnail did nothing
Webadict did nothing
TDS did nothing?
4maskwolf was on alert
TBF was on alert
Doll protected Tiruin
Persus13 protected Tiruin
DA targeted TBF or leafsnail?
Hector13
Tiruin
and a Dopp player killed shakerag.

PFP. If Meph confirms that a non-acting town role gives a 'survive' result that makes the setup easier to break since we can get a guard to no-action while DA scans them.

Actually let's go a step further: Meph: What result will a telepath get on a non-alert human
 war vet?

The OP says the War Vets goal will be Kill (always). I'm certain that means human war vets will show as kill.

At the moment, I think we should lynch 4maskwolf today. I've been wondering if TBF was a War Vet ever since his cagey response to RattyB's claim, and 4maskwolf didn't start breadcrumbing War Vet until N2. Unlike Leafsnail, he doesn't have an inspect role returning a non-dopp result on him, and there's no way we have of verifying his role without losing someone in the process. He's also been pretty good at staying out of the limelight all game. Plus he wants to kill DA, whose better alive to us than dead at the moment.

[hector13]

Does DA strike you as town? 'cause that's the only way he's going to be useful to us, and I don't think he is.

I also protected Tiruin N2.

[TheDarkStar]

Due to my assassin bot, I'll be killing one of the suspicious war vets (4mask/TBF) tonight because I should be able to do it without actually visiting and getting killed. If one is lynched, I'll shoot the other.

I'm inclined to lynch Leafsnail though - mostly because of this post:

Also TDS should give both of his techs to Tiruin. We should not tolerate them going to a completely unconfirmed player like doll, or him firing off his assassin bot without confirming that it's a tradeable alien tech.

This mostly seems like an excuse not to get me to use my assassin bot - assassin bots have flavor that confirms them and it's odd to wait to use it until I've traded it away. I recognize that you've been building a case against doll (and hence you have to oppose me sending tech to him), but why shouldn't I use my assassin bot tonight?

[Persus13]

Does DA strike you as town? 'cause that's the only way he's going to be useful to us, and I don't think he is.

I also protected Tiruin N2.

Well, since its looking like Leafsnail is going to get lynched, we'll find out at the end of the day today. I think DA is an investigative role. If he wasn't, why claim a role that would force him to make up results and PM players about it? If DA is a town Telepath, he's really useful to us right now. If he's scum, he can either dig a big hole for himself, or help verify town players, so he's still a bit useful to us right now.

At any rate, we need to collectively give DA a target to inspect tonight before day ends.

Due to my assassin bot, I'll be killing one of the suspicious war vets (4mask/TBF) tonight because I should be able to do it without actually visiting and getting killed. If one is lynched, I'll shoot the other.

I'm inclined to lynch Leafsnail though - mostly because of this post:

Also TDS should give both of his techs to Tiruin. We should not tolerate them going to a completely unconfirmed player like doll, or him firing off his assassin bot without confirming that it's a tradeable alien tech.

This mostly seems like an excuse not to get me to use my assassin bot - assassin bots have flavor that confirms them and it's odd to wait to use it until I've traded it away. I recognize that you've been building a case against doll (and hence you have to oppose me sending tech to him), but why shouldn't I use my assassin bot tonight?

If you're going to tech trade, I do agree that you send it to Tiruin. Is there any way for a dopp to get an assassin bot?

[Leafsnail]

Due to my assassin bot, I'll be killing one of the suspicious war vets (4mask/TBF) tonight because I should be able to do it without actually visiting and getting killed. If one is lynched, I'll shoot the other.

I'm inclined to lynch Leafsnail though - mostly because of this post:

Also TDS should give both of his techs to Tiruin. We should not tolerate them going to a completely unconfirmed player like doll, or him firing off his assassin bot without confirming that it's a tradeable alien tech.

This mostly seems like an excuse not to get me to use my assassin bot - assassin bots have flavor that confirms them and it's odd to wait to use it until I've traded it away. I recognize that you've been building a case against doll (and hence you have to oppose me sending tech to him), but why shouldn't I use my assassin bot tonight?

You need to explain why you're ignoring the Survive result on me if you vote for me. If I am a dopp, Deus Asmoth is also a dopp. If he is a dopp, I am not necessarily a dopp. So a lynch on him is strictly better since it will either clear me or hit a dopp. The same logic applies to Persus13 (with Tiruin being his clearer) and hector13 (TDS).

I don't see why you're so hostile to this idea if you're telling the truth - you trust that Tiruin is town as far as I can see, and she can use your bot after you give it to her (I assume on the same night, but even if she can't it's not like she's dying with 3 guards in the game). The trade needs to happen to confirm that you originally had the tech and that it was an alien tech.

I can understand why you'd have to push back against this idea if you're lying and trying to pass off a Military Scientist role as an operative, though.

Another valid person to give it to would be Persus13 because he can't be a dopp with you (since he can only be a dopp with Tiruin).

That said there's another much more scary possibility that occurred to me today that I will detail in my next post. There is a third party role who could screw us up, and it's not the Survivor like doll would want you to believe. In fact I find it strange that doll has not yet mentioned it if he's gotten to thinking about third parties.

[hector13]

What if there's a plasma bomb in the game? Then that gets rid of an all but confirmed Townie, the town loses a kill and whatever the other tech that TDS has and at least one guard.

If he trades the small tech and uses the medium tech, resulting in two kills rather than the one we've had per night so far, that works just the same as him trading both techs, with no risk of losing a kill.

[doll]

It's going to be twelve hours again before I can meaningfully post, so for now you can have this:
unvote
Now that we have a full list of claims, we can actually proceed on a somewhat mechanical basis.

Also TDS should give both of his techs to Tiruin. We should not tolerate them going to a completely unconfirmed player like doll, or him firing off his assassin bot without confirming that it's a tradeable alien tech.

Correction - TDS should give Assassination bot to Tiruin and have Tiruin use the Assassination bot. This is explicitly possible as per the roles list explanation of tech trading.
I'm not sure what the best short and long term uses of the Personal Combat Shield are.

You need to explain why you're ignoring the Survive result on me if you vote for me. If I am a dopp, Deus Asmoth is also a dopp. If he is a dopp, I am not necessarily a dopp. So a lynch on him is strictly better since it will either clear me or hit a dopp.

Leafsnail is correct that the relatively high kill priority of town!DA and his future use in clearing more people will make it likely that Leafsnail's survive result will be confirmed.
Though scum!DA and survivor!Leafsnail are both realistic possibilities, Leafsnail is correct that he isn't the best choice for a D3 lynch as I can currently see it.
I'll still explain my case against him when I post later.

That said there's another much more scary possibility that occurred to me today that I will detail in my next post. There is a third party role who could screw us up, and it's not the Survivor like doll would want you to believe. In fact I find it strange that doll has not yet mentioned it if he's gotten to thinking about third parties.

If you're talking about Spore Spreader - I mentioned it both D1 and D2.
I confirmed with Meph in a PM during D2 that a guard's protect prevents infester's infection.
On this account, War Vets and the profusion of guards (guarding Tiruin in particular if she's not infected from N1) make infesters a relatively low priority.
The jester style spore spreaders can be largely defeated by lynching a 'survive' result.

If you're referring to Hivemind, it is my stated intent to side with Hivemind if there is one since I'm pretty high on the convert list (though lower than I used to be) and I suspect a Hivemind would win at this point.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
4maskwolf: Persus13
Deus Asmoth: 4maskwolf, hector13, webadict
doll: Leafsnail
hector13: Deus Asmoth
Leafsnail: TheBiggerFish, TheDarkStar


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tuesday

Mephansteras: what actions can cause someone to return a 'survive' result? Can these actions override the 'kill' result that comes from being a doppelganger?

Meph: If a human player with a role associated with a "find", "kill" or "protect" result chooses not to action will they give off a "survive" result?

Meph: if an exterminator operative takes no action and is investigated by a telepath, what would the result be?

Other than an Advanced Mind Shield or specific techs, the only action that can return 'survive' is No Action.

Dopps default to Kill, so they'd need an Advanced Mind Shield to show up as Survive.
Humans default to Survive. That includes War Vets who turn off their kill (since the reactive kill is technically an Automatic Action).
Aliens depend on the Alien. Operatives are Survive if they do nothing.

I'll work on the rules a bit to make all this clearer for the future.