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[TheDarkStar]

I thought I posted, but I guess I forgot to hit "post".

Anyway, extend because there's more discussion to be had today. (PPE: the day just got extended anyway.)

So I did get a roleclaim PM from doll, but it was an impossible claim (PPE: Yeah, he claimed agent operative to me which is just silly). Currently, I'm inclined to think that doll really is a survivor who is currently helping town. I am against lynching him for now, but I would like to see some kind of inspection done on him.

We also have several people (wuba/hector) defending doll and some others like leafsnail/shakerag want him dead. Thus, although I'm against a doll lynch right now, I'll be really interested to see what alignment/role he flips.

TBF is currently up for lynching, but it appears to be because people don't like the way he posts which is a silly reason. Odds are he'll be lynched anyway, so at least we can get info.

So:

DA/hector/IO: Why do you want TBF lynched so badly? How do you (and hector especially) think doll compares in terms of scumminess?
Leafsnail/Shakerag: I'd like to see a general list of reads from you two.
doll/webadict: You've been siding together, which is odd because I'm not even sure if doll is town. However, webadict says that you pm'd role to each other so I can't assume both of you are scum. I'm also confused about why you would tell each other your roles this early. Why did you think it was safe? Why do you trust each other?

[TheBiggerFish]

Persus13

Doll's version of his PM conversation with me is accurate, for the record.

hector13:

I've not got on his case about PFP'ing, I've got on his case because he wants other people to play the game for him, and when he does deign to answer questions, nobody knows what questions he's answering. Do you think his play so far has very town-oriented?

His play so far has been lazy, but laziness isn't necessarily an indication of mafia affiliation. And he's far from the only to have slim posts.

He is the only player obviously making things harder for town though.

Your first question is asinine. What has anyone done this game? We're still in RVS.

We are still in RVS? I felt there were some pretty serious votes out there. Most people seem to have someone they're pretty suspicious of at this point in the game. I genuinely wanted your perspective on what you had felt you had accomplished so far today, and I apologize if this question came across as accusatory.

I felt we were in RVS at the point you asked your question yesterday, yes.

Why are you apologising?

My perspective was that I hadn't done very much, other than the pressure on TBF which you said I wasn't allowed to cite in response. As your question came with a vote, that's why I felt it was accusatory and responded defensively, seeing as you hadn't really done anything yourself. Leading into:

Second question is better, actually making me choose someone to interact with. I'll go with you, seein' as you're here.

What makes you think my vote on TBF was serious?

And you chose the path of least resistance by choosing to engage in dialogue with someone who had already decided to engage with you. How many people have you initiated (or attempted to) a conversation with that wasn't TBF?

I chose the path of least resistance to content. I'm not particularly good at opening dialogue with people. RVS for me usually involves dropping a vote on someone alongside an inane question or statement, which generally doesn't get much in the way of content.

You gave me something to react to and build on. I responded 15 minutes after you posted in the hope a dialogue would form and I could get a read on you, but you didn't respond.

I posted a little bit last night, though forgot to ask something to Leafsnail that's been on my mind for a bit, remedied later in this post.

I thought your vote on TBF was serious because if it wasn't, what's the point? Being voted means someone wants to kick you out of the game. Plus you want TBF to get his act together and quit whining. That's a good goal to have. Plus as I aid above, we don't seem to be RVS anymore.

The maxim "your vote is your voice" sticks out. It doesn't really mean anything if you say someone is suspicious and leave them be. If you say they're suspicious and vote for them, that provokes a response. My vote on TBF is serious now, 5 hours before day end, but at the time I wanted to provoke a reaction. I felt the reaction I got was telling - he has no interest in playing the game, which is very much not in town's benefit - so left it there.

Leafsnail

Yes. Especially if that math from forever ago showing it's a strong towntell still holds.

Speaking of which, do you think you'd claim Kook if you were a dopp? Did you plan to do so prior to receiving your role?

I didn't give any thought to it before the game. I wasn't aware of what people thought of claiming kook day one - I remember people being more hostile to it when I played last, so I probably wouldn't have taken the risk as mafia. I might do it in future now I know people are largely accepting of it.

How do you think the town should respond to you and I claiming kook in the short-, medium-, and long-term in this game? Say, D1 + N1, D2-N3, and D4+ respectively.

doll

More of an addition to the above question, but it's D1, anti-town indicators are all we have to go on right now. Do you think Shakerag is wrong (from his perspective) to be voting you, citing anti-town rather than scum?

There's nothing wrong with his vote, if he changes it as the day progresses.
In my opinion there is a lot of material in the thread to be suspicious of, though I've had more exposure to material than any other player I suppose.
The main point will be whether or not he interfaces with the cases that people make from now on.
As a resting vote left from RVS and putting pressure on an anti-town player, it's perfectly valid at the time it is from.

What about that resting vote left over from RVS being there 5 hours prior to the day ending?

Questions regarding your reads, too:

You appear to have gone to the effort of going through posts to form reads on people, but only quoted Shakerag. Why is that?

A lot of your reads end with you saying "unknown" despite some positive things to say about their game. Tiruin, for example, is playing a "strong and dependable Town (day) game", Deus Asmoth has a "solid town game" yet they still read as unknowns to you. Why is that?

Did the list come in any particular order?

PPE: TBF

What have you done to find scum? What do you plan to do to find scum? What have you done to shift the focus off of yourself? What do you plan to do to shift the focus off of yourself?

I haven't had much chance to - especially what with major focuses of this RVS being me, and someone I'm pretty certain is town.  fillipk might be scummier than not, but I'm really not certain.
At this point, I'm not sure I'll even have the chance, but I want to see the flip of whoever does get lynched to start actual scumhunting.
The last two questions are quite frankly loaded as all heck IMHO.  So no thanks.

Why do you think you've not had much chance to shift focus from you? What do you think people were asking you questions for?

Why do you want to wait until D2 to start scumhunting, when you are presently the lynch target in part because you've done nothing?

What makes you think the last two questions from IronyOwl were loaded?

IronyOwl

hector:

So, to answer your question, yes, TBF could use that as an excuse, but I don't think he could say so and have people accept it. He's made 20 posts since I voted him, so he's had plenty opportunity to do something, plenty opportunity to modify his behaviour, but he appears to think it's actually alright that he's said he wanted other people to find the questions he was asked - which, in itself, wasn't really an issue at that point seeing as how it was RVS, but not something I think is particularly helpful to town in the long-run - and that he's not going to put forth the effort into actually quoting and formatting the questions he does deign to answer - much more of an issue, seeing as that way nobody knows wtf he's responding to, and has to spend time figuring that out.

Then he has the audacity to say that the issues people have with him are that he's active-lurking and not asking questions, when I quite clearly had issue with the things in the above paragraph. He's actively taking the piss, is what he's doing.

So is your issue with Fish more a formatting thing and less the lack of substance?

No, that's one example of his unwillingness to do anything for town, though his most recent post he actually made an effort to trim down a quote.

PPPE: can't be bothered editing out the "5 hours 'til day end" stuff, even while the extension goes through and it's technically 4 hours to the previous day end time...

hector:You do realize I was answering those questions in order, right?

@hector:
Your first question is miscontextualized - I haven't had much chance to scumhunt.
I think they were asking me questions because they, you know, wanted to see my reactions?  That's a thing and all.
It's not that I want to wait, it's that I don't do too well scumhunting with almost no data.  Why do you say I've done "nothing" anyway?
Because they are loaded.  They imply that I'm specifically trying to manipulate the focus of the other players.  Whether or not I'm actually doing that, which I don't think I am, I'm not actively planning on doing that.  The whole point is that playing the game should, you know, just work.

@hector again:
"unwillingness to do anything for town"
"actively making it harder for town"
What even?
Seriously?
Doll's spreading blatant lies about and you seize on one post that I quickly realized I was wrong about needing to make, and disliking having to make longquote snips, as "He's actively making it harder for town"?

[RattyB]

Sorry for being basically inactive. Here's my attempt on insight.

vote fillipk

TBF:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

@hector again:
"unwillingness to do anything for town"
"actively making it harder for town"
What even?
Seriously?

I do see your point, and throughout this game so far, hector13 has been nonstop on your back.
I feel like he is definitely scum, but some kind of relatively underpowered/support role. instead of biding time, he seems
to provoke you, pulling a lot of players into his bandwagon. I still think we should lynch fillipk first, though,
as I perceive him as more of a threat. Hang in there.

IronyOwl:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

RattyB: Day's ending. Are you sure you want to end it draped haphazardly over Shakerag like a googly-eyed novelty shawl?

fillipk:

@Irony
Sure if I don't have anyone else I actually think is scum I would rather hit an obnoxious player then random another player.

Are you working on finding any such scum? Other than prodding RattyB, I don't recall you having anything approaching a real suspect or attempts at gaining a real suspect.

I understand that you are probably just trying to help me (as a noob, it is nice to have in), but if I were scum IronyOwl, getting the noob to trust me would be very helpful later on. Just saying.
If you are scum, I'm on to your tricks...

[TheDarkStar]

Sorry for being basically inactive. Here's my attempt on insight.

vote fillipk

TBF:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

@hector again:
"unwillingness to do anything for town"
"actively making it harder for town"
What even?
Seriously?

I do see your point, and throughout this game so far, hector13 has been nonstop on your back.
I feel like he is definitely scum, but some kind of relatively underpowered/support role. instead of biding time, he seems
to provoke you, pulling a lot of players into his bandwagon. I still think we should lynch fillipk first, though,
as I perceive him as more of a threat. Hang in there.

IronyOwl:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

RattyB: Day's ending. Are you sure you want to end it draped haphazardly over Shakerag like a googly-eyed novelty shawl?

fillipk:

@Irony
Sure if I don't have anyone else I actually think is scum I would rather hit an obnoxious player then random another player.

Are you working on finding any such scum? Other than prodding RattyB, I don't recall you having anything approaching a real suspect or attempts at gaining a real suspect.

I understand that you are probably just trying to help me (as a noob, it is nice to have in), but if I were scum IronyOwl, getting the noob to trust me would be very helpful later on. Just saying.
If you are scum, I'm on to your tricks...

Why are you voting for fillipk? The rest of your post is responses to TBF and IO.

[webadict]

webadict:

Fillipk is an incredibly dodgy character. You should lynch him.

Are you just kind of done for the Day, then?

Not really. I will be done when I convince 3 more people to lynch fillipk. Also, I posted that while waiting for my car to warm up for work. I am a lot more busy than I used to be.

Lynching TBF is a stupid mistake. Nothing he is doing really jumps out at me other than being: 1) lazy, 2) newbie, 3) boring. Lynching him gives us relatively little information, unless you somehow think he is being really clever.

[Leafsnail]

So I guess Doll's gimmick is to play in a really dumb way for 48 hours then recover? Whatever.

I have a pretty strong read that Shakerag is scum. Quite a lot of that is coming from my gut but I will try and explain it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

His mentality, to me, seems to be "how can I avoid attention and conflict" rather than "how can I find scum" or "how will I go after this person who I think is scum".

This post was the one that first triggered my suspicions. I imagine this post took a good amount of time and effort to make, but there is basically nothing of actual substance in it (eg reads, accusations, relevant questions). It just has a safe vote on someone who is already taking shit from other people from their weird play with a straightforward question. In other words this post looks to me like Shakerag was trying to avoid standing out - a pretty big non-town tell in my eyes. You could call it active-lurking.

His other posts have had vague insinuations (eg here in his response to me), but he always seems to stop short of explicitly expressing his own viewpoints. Again this seems to me like attention-avoiding behaviour.

fillipk has been giving me somewhat similar vibes but I'll need to reread and think about his posts more carefully.

How do you think the town should respond to you and I claiming kook in the short-, medium-, and long-term in this game? Say, D1 + N1, D2-N3, and D4+ respectively.

I don't think they should really do anything differently except not investigate us if they're agents (and maybe investigate us if they have kook bypassing inspections).

[hector13]

* hector13 sighs

Fuck it. You make me weep, TBF. The reasons I had against you form a wet paper bag and you still can't fight your way out of it.

Unvote

TDS

DA/hector/IO: Why do you want TBF lynched so badly? How do you (and hector especially) think doll compares in terms of scumminess?

I want to make him go away. Letting my frustration that he seems to enjoy mafia, but isn't very good at it get in the way.

I don't think doll was scum. Scum are s'posed to blend-in, I don't think throwing about fakeclaims publicly and privately is going to achieve that.

Yes there are three scum players plus any number of possibly-not-town-aligned third-parties, and doll has by no stretch of the imagination been cleared in my mind, but doll has done a great deal to inspire content so far. TBF has done nothing.

Presently, I will probably move my vote to fillipk. doll's case makes sense, but I want to read through the thread again, sans frustration. Tomorrow.

[webadict]

doll/webadict: You've been siding together, which is odd because I'm not even sure if doll is town. However, webadict says that you pm'd role to each other so I can't assume both of you are scum. I'm also confused about why you would tell each other your roles this early. Why did you think it was safe? Why do you trust each other?

Are you sure I'm town?

To be fair, I chose to claim on my own. It was a bit of insurance that I would have a fair audience, and that I would have leverage, as well. Knowledge is powerful, but it's also dangerous in small doses. I consider a necessary investment, and one that paid off with interest.

You have to play unfairly to get an advantage sometimes. I consider this to be my best shot at winning, as well as a more fun way to play. Plus, in the ~5% chance I'm wrong, I still influenced a new generation. Gotta pass on the insights.

[webadict]

So I guess Doll's gimmick is to play in a really dumb way for 48 hours then recover? Whatever.

I have a pretty strong read that Shakerag is scum. Quite a lot of that is coming from my gut but I will try and explain it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

His mentality, to me, seems to be "how can I avoid attention and conflict" rather than "how can I find scum" or "how will I go after this person who I think is scum".

This post was the one that first triggered my suspicions. I imagine this post took a good amount of time and effort to make, but there is basically nothing of actual substance in it (eg reads, accusations, relevant questions). It just has a safe vote on someone who is already taking shit from other people from their weird play with a straightforward question. In other words this post looks to me like Shakerag was trying to avoid standing out - a pretty big non-town tell in my eyes. You could call it active-lurking.

His other posts have had vague insinuations (eg here in his response to me), but he always seems to stop short of explicitly expressing his own viewpoints. Again this seems to me like attention-avoiding behaviour.

fillipk has been giving me somewhat similar vibes but I'll need to reread and think about his posts more carefully.

How do you think the town should respond to you and I claiming kook in the short-, medium-, and long-term in this game? Say, D1 + N1, D2-N3, and D4+ respectively.

I don't think they should really do anything differently except not investigate us if they're agents (and maybe investigate us if they have kook bypassing inspections).

Cry me a river.

[4maskwolf]

So I guess Doll's gimmick is to play in a really dumb way for 48 hours then recover? Whatever.

I have a pretty strong read that Shakerag is scum. Quite a lot of that is coming from my gut but I will try and explain it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

His mentality, to me, seems to be "how can I avoid attention and conflict" rather than "how can I find scum" or "how will I go after this person who I think is scum".

This post was the one that first triggered my suspicions. I imagine this post took a good amount of time and effort to make, but there is basically nothing of actual substance in it (eg reads, accusations, relevant questions). It just has a safe vote on someone who is already taking shit from other people from their weird play with a straightforward question. In other words this post looks to me like Shakerag was trying to avoid standing out - a pretty big non-town tell in my eyes. You could call it active-lurking.

His other posts have had vague insinuations (eg here in his response to me), but he always seems to stop short of explicitly expressing his own viewpoints. Again this seems to me like attention-avoiding behaviour.

fillipk has been giving me somewhat similar vibes but I'll need to reread and think about his posts more carefully.

How do you think the town should respond to you and I claiming kook in the short-, medium-, and long-term in this game? Say, D1 + N1, D2-N3, and D4+ respectively.

I don't think they should really do anything differently except not investigate us if they're agents (and maybe investigate us if they have kook bypassing inspections).

Cry me a river.

Erm...

Explain this.  Nothing in this post is directed at you and only one line is directed at your friend doll, so why say this at all?

[Deus Asmoth]

Doll:

Because as you just said, the anti-town factions already have information. All you're doing is making it harder for the town to play.

Ideally, I made it harder to gather role information while generating discussion.
That has big implications on scum's game.
Town, on the other hand, could hunt for scum throughout because slips were never disguised while only lies were.
If, say, I stopped lying, then wouldn't you agree that town has a lot more to work with now than it did before, and for that I am partially responsible?

The town has a lot more to discuss that it otherwise would have, sure. Most of that is centred around you, so I'm dubious of how useful it is (especially the reactions to your claims, which requires actually knowing your alignment to be a solid indicator of theirs). I could be entirely wrong, and even if I'm not it did at least make for a more interesting RVS than I've seen since roo played a game.

TDS

DA/hector/IO: Why do you want TBF lynched so badly? How do you (and hector especially) think doll compares in terms of scumminess?

He's currently the best choice as far as I'm concerned. He doesn't seem to feel much need to put effort into the game until pressured to do so (asking other players to compile questions for him and apparently not realising how many posts were in the game until a fair length of time afterwards) and is also very guarded in the information he's giving in the answers to questions, where most other players give some kind of speculative answers. He may not be scum, but his mindset definitely doesn't seem to be town oriented as far as I'm concerned.

Doll's play is too suicidal for me to seriously consider him as scum right now. Drawing that much attention so early in the game as scum would be an incredibly strange thing to do and while he might just be that confident in his ability to deflect suspicion later on, I can't see why it'd be worth the risk.

fillipk

As for the PM.  What am I going to do, add a third claim to the list of claims by Doll with no proof to back them up, I see that as more scummy then keeping silent about it.

Can you explain this? What's scumming in telling people about his claim, even if you don't think it's true? I can buy you doing that if you didn't respond to it, but why keep it a secret when you seem to have treated it with the possibility of being true?

TBF

What have you done to find scum? What do you plan to do to find scum? What have you done to shift the focus off of yourself? What do you plan to do to shift the focus off of yourself?

I haven't had much chance to - especially what with major focuses of this RVS being me, and someone I'm pretty certain is town.  fillipk might be scummier than not, but I'm really not certain.
At this point, I'm not sure I'll even have the chance, but I want to see the flip of whoever does get lynched to start actual scumhunting.
The last two questions are quite frankly loaded as all heck IMHO.  So no thanks.

Can you clarify that last part? You've said that you think that the focus on you and doll isn't helpful to the town. How is asking you what you plan to do about it a loaded question?

[TheBiggerFish]

That's not what he asked me.  He asked specifically about "shifting the focus" off of myself.

Additionally, I didn't say that the focus on doll was unhelpful.

[Deus Asmoth]

What difference do you see between doing something about the focus on yourself (which you see as unhelpful) and shifting the focus off yourself?

What have you done to find scum? What do you plan to do to find scum? What have you done to shift the focus off of yourself? What do you plan to do to shift the focus off of yourself?

I haven't had much chance to - especially what with major focuses of this RVS being me, and someone I'm pretty certain is town. 

Did you mean someone other than Doll with that second part, or do you think it is helpful to have one of the major foci of the day be someone you are fairly certain is town?

[webadict]

So I guess Doll's gimmick is to play in a really dumb way for 48 hours then recover? Whatever.

I have a pretty strong read that Shakerag is scum. Quite a lot of that is coming from my gut but I will try and explain it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

His mentality, to me, seems to be "how can I avoid attention and conflict" rather than "how can I find scum" or "how will I go after this person who I think is scum".

This post was the one that first triggered my suspicions. I imagine this post took a good amount of time and effort to make, but there is basically nothing of actual substance in it (eg reads, accusations, relevant questions). It just has a safe vote on someone who is already taking shit from other people from their weird play with a straightforward question. In other words this post looks to me like Shakerag was trying to avoid standing out - a pretty big non-town tell in my eyes. You could call it active-lurking.

His other posts have had vague insinuations (eg here in his response to me), but he always seems to stop short of explicitly expressing his own viewpoints. Again this seems to me like attention-avoiding behaviour.

fillipk has been giving me somewhat similar vibes but I'll need to reread and think about his posts more carefully.

How do you think the town should respond to you and I claiming kook in the short-, medium-, and long-term in this game? Say, D1 + N1, D2-N3, and D4+ respectively.

I don't think they should really do anything differently except not investigate us if they're agents (and maybe investigate us if they have kook bypassing inspections).

Cry me a river.

Erm...

Explain this.  Nothing in this post is directed at you and only one line is directed at your friend doll, so why say this at all?

Why does it have to be directed at me to complain about it? He was whining about how he disliked his play, in spite of how much no one else but him cares. If he gets to whine like that, I might as well join him. It is an incredibly fruitful endeavor. Look at all the scum I have found while doing it. Leafsnail and I have found all the scums by complaining.

And that's why I pointed it out.

[TheBiggerFish]

What difference do you see between doing something about the focus on yourself (which you see as unhelpful) and shifting the focus off yourself?

What have you done to find scum? What do you plan to do to find scum? What have you done to shift the focus off of yourself? What do you plan to do to shift the focus off of yourself?

I haven't had much chance to - especially what with major focuses of this RVS being me, and someone I'm pretty certain is town. 

Did you mean someone other than Doll with that second part, or do you think it is helpful to have one of the major foci of the day be someone you are fairly certain is town?

Pretty much, word choice.  Connotations and stuff.  But either way, I don't think I should need to do anything about the focus on myself except play - that is, that what I'm already doing - at least, what I'm doing right now - should, you know, prove the suspicions groundless.  Actively "shifting focus off" myself implies that there are reasons for focus to be on myself.  And honestly, it was somewhat of a complaint that hector was tunneling (at least IMO).

I meant Doll.