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[doll]

I'm going to say you shouldn't. No reason to give scum more information than they already have.

Should the guards really be guarding each other anyway? Seems a bit pointless shifting the kill from one of them to the other, even if they do pass on the information about who killed them.

The ability for guards to guard one another, either mutually or in a one directional chain, removes scum's safety switch of killing the guard rather than swinging at a potentially guarded player.
The existence of such an option in and of itself removes most of the danger of having the guards being public.

However, you are correct; I know who the guard is, and so does TDS. At this stage I'm inclined to say TDS is legitimate (and we'll know during the day if tech-trading is a day action), so it's vanishingly unlikely that every player who can confirm the actions of the guards will go missing in one night.
I had totally forgotten that Leafsnail and hector had claimed kook.
I suppose that gives an indication of the faith I place in claims.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
Deus Asmoth: hector13, webadict
hector13: Deus Asmoth
TheBiggerFish: 4maskwolf
TheDarkStar: Leafsnail, Persus13


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tuesday.



Tech trading happens during the Night phase.

[doll]

Disappointing.
Obviously we can't kill TDS before he has the chance to confirm himself (or at least give the tech away to a relatively clear town player).
TDS still hasn't told anyone what the remaining tech is, as far as I am aware.

[Leafsnail]

Why are you so reluctant to reveal the identity of an observant guard now? Especially when that info comes with information that largely clears them.

DA did contact me about his investigation on day 2. I think I'd like to see him stay alive, even if he's mafia him having to make up results every night puts them in a worse position.

Actually barring a cult I think no lynch would be a good choice today. There's an odd number of players, we're getting a lot of info tonight and with multiple guards the mafia will have trouble making a meaningful kill.

[doll]

So I'm looking at my list of claimed mechanical information and there are only three people who could be the other observant guard.
Assuming TDS is telling the truth and DA is a telepath with a survive result on Leafsnail, our scum could be:
Deus Asmoth - telepath
TheBiggerFish - claimed visiting role or war vet, DA has an inspect on TBF
4maskwolf - unknown
hector13 - unknown
webadict - publicly unknown
Tiruin - claimed intelligence scientist, ran RattyB into the grave D2, correctly identified that Shakerag did not visit during D1, has 1 unused ATD
doll - claimed observant guard D2
One of whom is the TDS's observant guard and thus clear (once TDS clears himself).
Unless I'm seriously missing something, then most of the pro-town sentiment regarding myself, Tiruin and webadict seems to have no mechanical ground at all - the only case towards Tiruin being clear is pure WIFOM, while most of the case towards my being town is based on the audacity of my play despite my having no meta to compare it to at all, and webadict is just kind of sitting on his association with us and the aggressiveness of his play.
Tiruin isn't incompetent - she'll play 'suboptimally' to gain a psychological advantage if it serves her purposes.
I'm a shameless audacious twat, and would like to think that I would be no less aggressive in hunting scum if I was scum myself.
Webadict is in no way cleared by myself or Tiruin and is playing the way webadict plays.

While Tiruin and webadict are excellent players and there exists no mechanical indictment against either of them, they aren't clear, and neither am I.

Why are you so reluctant to reveal the identity of an observant guard now? Especially when that info comes with information that largely clears them.

Given the above list, I'm fairly sure that scum are 90%+ confident about the identity of the other observant guard, anyway.
As of right now, I'll allow that guard to decide whether or not they want to out their self.

[Persus13]

Tiruin said Shakerag said he said she said Persus had a "survive" goal. This means he's an Enchanter, Survivor, or a VT.

Nope, I'm none of those. My action N1 must have given the survive goal.

Why are you so reluctant to reveal the identity of an observant guard now? Especially when that info comes with information that largely clears them.

DA did contact me about his investigation on day 2. I think I'd like to see him stay alive, even if he's mafia him having to make up results every night puts them in a worse position.

Actually barring a cult I think no lynch would be a good choice today. There's an odd number of players, we're getting a lot of info tonight and with multiple guards the mafia will have trouble making a meaningful kill.

If you had to lynch someone today, who would it be?

[webadict]

Why are you so reluctant to reveal the identity of an observant guard now? Especially when that info comes with information that largely clears them.

DA did contact me about his investigation on day 2. I think I'd like to see him stay alive, even if he's mafia him having to make up results every night puts them in a worse position.

Actually barring a cult I think no lynch would be a good choice today. There's an odd number of players, we're getting a lot of info tonight and with multiple guards the mafia will have trouble making a meaningful kill.

Lolololololololol, I literally cannot even believe you just said that.

Does no one else realize how stupid this is? Jesus Christ.

Just give up already, why don't you? Might as well out your teammate now.

Look, the more of your stuff I read, the angrier I get.

Doll, if you don't make a decision now, you're effectively stalling the town. I don't know what the big deal is with everyone, but just make up your minds and lynch someone. If you screw up, oh well, better luck next time. But sitting here watching like five different people be so uncommitted shows me that no one is willing to take charge. If that doesn't concern you, then there are bigger issues at hand.

I'm going to pick someone to go after. And I will attempt to get them lynched. The question is, which of the remaining unconfirmed players do I choose. If you want to affect that decision, then better say what you can now. I don't have all flipping day to stew over information like the rest of you.

Jesus. This isn't that hard.

[Leafsnail]

@webadict: why don't you like the idea of no lynch?

Given the above list, I'm fairly sure that scum are 90%+ confident about the identity of the other observant guard, anyway.
As of right now, I'll allow that guard to decide whether or not they want to out their self.

Then why not just out them? This whole thing looks really fishy to me - both with TDS claiming the role but not the identity of who they inspected, and with them giving that information to you who they had no reason to trust.

If you had to lynch someone today, who would it be?

doll. As I said before I found his behaviour yesterday suspicious, and the way he's handling the TDS thing today is also weird (not outing the Observant Guard even though he was happy to out himself when he had the same role and the mechanical information gained was less relevant). Here's something interesting I've just noticed actually:

Yes, absolutely.
The day ending without tech being traded (if tech trading is a day action) is only acceptable if the day ends with a TDS lynch.

It's a pretty unlikely scenario that TDS's claim isn't legitimate, though.

doll was the one who came up with the trading idea in the first place. But from this post, it looks like he didn't know how tech trading worked until Meph clarified it in the thread. In spite of that, he didn't feel the need to seek clarification on the matter himself. How come? Wouldn't you want to know when the tech trading could happen so that you could set it up as fast as possible, before today's lynch if possible? I suspect that doll actually knew how it worked beforehand, which is why he already suggested we shouldn't lynch TDS today.

That said I think TDS is the most likely player to be scum. Too many things about his claim don't make any sense. To add to the things I listed earlier, I can't think of any reason why a town alien would chose not to take a two-shot scanner as their medium tech. He has a chance to prove his claim tonight but I think he will probably fail to do so. That's partly why I want a no lynch - I'd rather not just lynch someone who's less likely to be scum in the meantime.

[webadict]

@webadict: why don't you like the idea of no lynch?

Given the above list, I'm fairly sure that scum are 90%+ confident about the identity of the other observant guard, anyway.
As of right now, I'll allow that guard to decide whether or not they want to out their self.

Then why not just out them? This whole thing looks really fishy to me - both with TDS claiming the role but not the identity of who they inspected, and with them giving that information to you who they had no reason to trust.

If you had to lynch someone today, who would it be?

doll. As I said before I found his behaviour yesterday suspicious, and the way he's handling the TDS thing today is also weird (not outing the Observant Guard even though he was happy to out himself when he had the same role and the mechanical information gained was less relevant). Here's something interesting I've just noticed actually:

Yes, absolutely.
The day ending without tech being traded (if tech trading is a day action) is only acceptable if the day ends with a TDS lynch.

It's a pretty unlikely scenario that TDS's claim isn't legitimate, though.

doll was the one who came up with the trading idea in the first place. But from this post, it looks like he didn't know how tech trading worked until Meph clarified it in the thread. In spite of that, he didn't feel the need to seek clarification on the matter himself. How come? Wouldn't you want to know when the tech trading could happen so that you could set it up as fast as possible, before today's lynch if possible? I suspect that doll actually knew how it worked beforehand, which is why he already suggested we shouldn't lynch TDS today.

That said I think TDS is the most likely player to be scum. Too many things about his claim don't make any sense. To add to the things I listed earlier, I can't think of any reason why a town alien would chose not to take a two-shot scanner as their medium tech. He has a chance to prove his claim tonight but I think he will probably fail to do so. That's partly why I want a no lynch - I'd rather not just lynch someone who's less likely to be scum in the meantime.

No Lynching doesn't really confirm more people at this stage. It's better to remove those that aren't confirmed, and whittle down the number RIGHT NOW. We're not lacking resources... We're lacking motivation to be wrong. I don't see why not. We've basically got 5 people that are almost 100% non-Dopp.

You're only saying TDS is scum because you can't stand it that the alien is siding against the Dopps, and the person with the greatest chance to out Doppelgangers is alive. The fact you're obviously committed to lynching TDS and focusing on third parties instead of, oh, I don't know, maybe the Doppelgangers, really stands out to me. So, how about this:

Pick one: you or hector13. I am going to vote one of those two, and you can decide.

Which one?

Nah, you know what, I'll do you one better: Pick anyone that isn't a player of the following - Tiruin, doll, TDS, 4mask, TBF, webadict.

Here's the catch: If you don't pick one, I'm going to advocate for your lynch. Regardless of what alignment you are, this should be obvious that I am 100% serious. In fact, why not give me them in a list of most suspicious to least suspicious? That way, I can see a bit more into your reasoning, and if you're a Doppelganger, then you're going to be wondering why I keep pestering you like this, and if you're Town, then I hope you're understand exactly why this is super bad for you. I can always explain it, if you'd like, but it's really obvious: I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW I FIND YOU EXTRAORDINARILY SUSPICIOUS SO THAT WHEN I DIE, PEOPLE WILL GO BACK AND GO, HMM, THIS WEB CHARACTER SURE THOUGHT LEAF WAS SUSPICIOUS, MAYBE WE SHOULD'VE LISTENED SOONER TO WHAT HE SAYS. NOW THAT THE HE'S DEAD HE CAN'T CHANGE HIS MIND ABOUT YOU. So, I'm trying to help you help the Town. Why is this so hard?!

God, I just want people to understand the Town's best interests are not being so blase over everything. And if you're a Dopp, then your mindset of "We're screwed" is really leaking into your play, which is about 90% of why I want to lynch you. Doesn't matter what alignment you are, you haven't lost until the game is over.

[Tiruin]

So I'm looking at my list of claimed mechanical information and there are only three people who could be the other observant guard.
Assuming TDS is telling the truth and DA is a telepath with a survive result on Leafsnail, our scum could be:
Deus Asmoth - telepath
TheBiggerFish - claimed visiting role or war vet, DA has an inspect on TBF
4maskwolf - unknown
hector13 - unknown
webadict - publicly unknown
Tiruin - claimed intelligence scientist, ran RattyB into the grave D2, correctly identified that Shakerag did not visit during D1, has 1 unused ATD
doll - claimed observant guard D2
One of whom is the TDS's observant guard and thus clear (once TDS clears himself).
Unless I'm seriously missing something, then most of the pro-town sentiment regarding myself, Tiruin and webadict seems to have no mechanical ground at all - the only case towards Tiruin being clear is pure WIFOM, while most of the case towards my being town is based on the audacity of my play despite my having no meta to compare it to at all, and webadict is just kind of sitting on his association with us and the aggressiveness of his play.
Tiruin isn't incompetent - she'll play 'suboptimally' to gain a psychological advantage if it serves her purposes.
I'm a shameless audacious twat, and would like to think that I would be no less aggressive in hunting scum if I was scum myself.
Webadict is in no way cleared by myself or Tiruin and is playing the way webadict plays.

While Tiruin and webadict are excellent players and there exists no mechanical indictment against either of them, they aren't clear, and neither am I.

Why are you so reluctant to reveal the identity of an observant guard now? Especially when that info comes with information that largely clears them.

Given the above list, I'm fairly sure that scum are 90%+ confident about the identity of the other observant guard, anyway.
As of right now, I'll allow that guard to decide whether or not they want to out their self.

PFP have to bop you there for a bit.
I don't aim to play suboptimally--there are times where I cut a bit of my wording when scum in order to forward the main goal I have, but I don't aim to lessen my activity or connection to the game therein to do so. It's moreso how I do things--not to be tied or compared to other players' playstyles as mine is my own :V
Next is...I pretty do have a mechanical point It's pretty much ME and my CHOICE (since Int. Scientists do choose their tech from the Int. Scientist list + the Mad Scientist as a choice too [can only pick one]). The 'pro town' sentiment is pretty much not based in game-mechanics for mostly all games, but in the reasoning done by players unless power roles have singled out people through all inevitability. The mechanical point I'm saying about mine is how the role (the mechanical part of the game) helped me in acting for my goals.

Though of course people can still poke me as scum :O that's still possible given the viewpoints.
...And I've no idea how webadict plays, actually .-. I do know that he has [stuff] given that we're friends outside of Mafia and known each other for a few years, so that does affect my view on him as a person in a good and knowing way though! Anyway!

Leafsnail: I don't think that a no lynch is beneficial for town. Like at all.
My only area of knowledge is to Shakerag stuff and my devices [or whichever anyone can substitute for them to allow suspicion against me and all]--I have no idea as to doll's connection system [and my current impression is him being pretty connected with webby and others, which does give the impression that he isn't a dopp given the 2+ close connections]
Next is, there are several people (1+) over the dopp-nightly kill that can just waste the day if the no lynch is in practice; me for one, as I'm a polarized choice (You can suspect me...or based on context which is also a mechanical point of the game, not suspect me). There's doll too and his claim of being a guard [and...an assortment of other claims beforehand that his note of 'I remembered people claimed kook' just had me remembering].
There's also the claiemd kooks which I feel uncertain about but wholly in the grey.
And then there's also the other folks which won't help narrow stuff down that far--D4 seems a more reasonable area for something such as that but not today.

PFP

[webadict]

Let me explain how I'm playing this game:

Brain <-- This is my brain. Thoughts come out of it. I write those thoughts down in a post. When I'm scum, I have to cut out the bad thoughts, because those tend to be things like 'Murder the innocents' and so forth, and obviously, that would be bad for publicity. Which this game is like half about. If I maintain good public relations, I have more control over who we can and can't lynch. But as Town, that thought isn't as big of a concern, so I could probably say things like 'Murder the innocents' and somehow get away with it.

Murder the innocents.

See, but the problem is that this is WIFOM, and nobody likes WIFOM.

Posts <-- This is what my brain produces. I'd draw a line somehow, but I'm like super lazy when it comes to diagrams. I post these given careful or reckless consideration, depending on what is required at the time. Currently, I have assessed the Town's mood to be Apathetic with a high chance of Lame, which requires more aggressive posting and stirring the pot. This means I am less careful about what is said or how it's said, since it's really only a matter that things are said. This means I can be more active.

Murder the innocents.

Now, you see, this whole post should make you think twice about me. Like, oh boy, look how analytical web is being on the Town, wtf, that's creepy/spooky. But, at the same time, it's pretty much spot-on for why things happen, and you honestly can't deny it, so does it not also make me seem town? Weird, ain't it? Essentially, if something seems like a good idea at the time, you gotta take it. Or plan for the best time to take it. So, I saw how doll played and I went with it. Simple as that. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Maybe doll's scum, maybe he isn't. But, that's not the right way to think about it. The correct way is to be sure of your actions in an authentic way. That's why doll isn't scum. He is authentic in the way he presents himself, even in his chaotic movements.

Outcome <-- This is what it wishes to produce. And sometimes it does. I'm gonna be honest, there's gotta be like 60 steps in between, and I'm not sure what half of them are, and I'm not sure how the other half come about, but that's not my problem. My problem is getting information out there. My information. Like a permeating web of propaganda. It's like playing town as scum. I like starting with teammates, and if I can't start with them, I might as well make them myself. I mean, if I'm not quick enough, I won't have any.

I guess it's a counter-strategy, relying on the basic tenets of Mafia making you untrustworthy of everyone else, and violating those rules, not in the hopes that others will see you as untrustworthy, but by being so blatant about it that the scum feel pressured NOT to say something about it. The Town doesn't have to feel too bad about it. They may point it out, but if done correctly, it isn't THAT big of a deal. It's so obvious, it makes you a target of night actions, and if you're obviously not afraid of those, then what's the big deal? It's turning the tables on the scum, so they're the ones that are fighting an informed minority.

Fun <-- Also, it produces this. Conventional play styles may be somewhat effective, but they aren't as fun.

And that is a 101 on Web's play style. Unfortunately, I like to evolve, so this is bound to change eventually.

[hector13]

I'm thinking doll is trying to implicitly get me to claim, and I guess he makes a good point that there's only a handful of people that could be the second OG, and I was the only one that responded to his "so, should I tell everyone about this guy" which is probably quite telling, so bugger it.

I was on the grassy knoll am the human observant guard of which y'all speak. Discuss.

As for the no lynch, it's basically just giving scum the opportunity to decide what information the town gets tomorrow, which probably isn't ideal.

[webadict]

I'm thinking doll is trying to implicitly get me to claim, and I guess he makes a good point that there's only a handful of people that could be the second OG, and I was the only one that responded to his "so, should I tell everyone about this guy" which is probably quite telling, so bugger it.

I was on the grassy knoll am the human observant guard of which y'all speak. Discuss.

As for the no lynch, it's basically just giving scum the opportunity to decide what information the town gets tomorrow, which probably isn't ideal.

Oh, look at that Leafsnail, looks like hector's off the table now. Now you have less to consider!

[Leafsnail]

No Lynching doesn't really confirm more people at this stage. It's better to remove those that aren't confirmed, and whittle down the number RIGHT NOW. We're not lacking resources... We're lacking motivation to be wrong. I don't see why not. We've basically got 5 people that are almost 100% non-Dopp.

Who? The only people I would put in that category are Tiruin (it's very unlikely she'd bus RattyB in that way), Persus (survive result from Shakerag via Tiruin, who should be lynched first if you suspect him) and myself (survive result from DA, who should be lynched first if you suspect me).

doll has certainly posted a lot of words, but I don't regard that as a town tell. Nothing about his interactions with RattyB suggests to me that they couldn't be partners. In fact I would say his behaviour surrounding that whole incident, and today's TDS incident, is suspicious. You may have chosen to blindly trust him but that doesn't mean that anyone else should.

EBWOP: hector13 is now added to the list of non-dopp players (or at least, players who shouldn't be lynched before others).

You're only saying TDS is scum because you can't stand it that the alien is siding against the Dopps, and the person with the greatest chance to out Doppelgangers is alive. The fact you're obviously committed to lynching TDS and focusing on third parties instead of, oh, I don't know, maybe the Doppelgangers, really stands out to me. So, how about this:

I don't think that TDS is an alien. I think he is a doppelganger who made a bad claim, much like RattyB. But we can wait until tomorrow to see if I'm right.

Pick one: you or hector13. I am going to vote one of those two, and you can decide.

Which one?

hector13, because there is no inspection result clearing him. If you think I'm a doppelganger that implies that DA is lying and that you should lynch him first.
EBWOP: since he's also clear now I can only say "neither". Both would be very stupid votes.

Nah, you know what, I'll do you one better: Pick anyone that isn't a player of the following - Tiruin, doll, TDS, 4mask, TBF, webadict.

Here's the catch: If you don't pick one, I'm going to advocate for your lynch. Regardless of what alignment you are, this should be obvious that I am 100% serious. In fact, why not give me them in a list of most suspicious to least suspicious? That way, I can see a bit more into your reasoning, and if you're a Doppelganger, then you're going to be wondering why I keep pestering you like this, and if you're Town, then I hope you're understand exactly why this is super bad for you. I can always explain it, if you'd like, but it's really obvious: I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW I FIND YOU EXTRAORDINARILY SUSPICIOUS SO THAT WHEN I DIE, PEOPLE WILL GO BACK AND GO, HMM, THIS WEB CHARACTER SURE THOUGHT LEAF WAS SUSPICIOUS, MAYBE WE SHOULD'VE LISTENED SOONER TO WHAT HE SAYS. NOW THAT THE HE'S DEAD HE CAN'T CHANGE HIS MIND ABOUT YOU. So, I'm trying to help you help the Town. Why is this so hard?!

God, I just want people to understand the Town's best interests are not being so blase over everything. And if you're a Dopp, then your mindset of "We're screwed" is really leaking into your play, which is about 90% of why I want to lynch you. Doesn't matter what alignment you are, you haven't lost until the game is over.

You've excluded 6 players and left me with 4:
hector13
Persus13
Deus Asmoth
Leafsnail
hector13 is cleared of being a dopp by TDS' investigation. If we suspect him we should lynch TDS first. So he can be crossed off.
Persus13 is cleared of being a dopp by Shakerag's investigation reported via Tiruin. If we suspect him we should lynch Tiruin first (although I think Tiruin is almost certainly town, and even if she isn't it would still be a risk to falsely report an investigation like that due to mediums).
I know I am town, so I obviously would not advocate that lynch. From your perspective I am cleared of being a dopp by DA's investigation. If you suspect me you should lynch DA first.
So by process of elimination the only remotely defensible lynch from that list is Deus Asmoth. I don't think it's a good lynch though. The Telepath is a very powerful role if town, and even if he's not his inspections will gradually back him into a corner, either forcing him to 1v1 someone by lying or clearing other people from suspicion in his eyes.

That said I don't think it's impossible that DA is a dopp - their PM to me with the result was quite suspicious, but I want them to explain themselves fully before I reveal that chain of communication and my thoughts on it.

Among the players you arbitrarily excluded, I strongly think that Tiruin is town, and while I think TDS is probably a dopp there's no point in lynching him today. That leaves doll, 4mask, TBF and yourself as better lynches than DA.

I think TBF is probably also town, but he does need to claim to confirm my theory of what happened yesterday. His reaction to RattyB was very fast and read as genuine to me. So he's 4th on that list.

I've been finding your posting style irritating this game but there is something genuine to it that makes me lean town on you. You're just inviting too much attention and picking too many fights for me to believe that you're trying to stay alive as scum.

4mask has honestly slid under my notice for most of the game. Nothing he's posted has made me feel strongly in either direction, so I've never felt moved to write stuff on him. Now that he's one of the only valid suspects I will reread him, particularly with regards to any RattyB interactions.

doll was my preferred candidate for lynching as I expressed before.

Summary:
Terrible, unjustifiable lynches due to mechanical reasons:
Persus13
hector13
Leafsnail

Not mechanically clear but very likely to be town:
Tiruin

I think they're scum but we'll wait and see until tomorrow:
TheDarkStar

Remaining players sorted from worst to best lynches in my eyes:
Deus Asmoth (due mainly to claimed role)
TheBiggerFish
webadict
4maskwolf
doll

[4maskwolf]

So there's actually something important that Persus just said that actually makes them not cleared as scum.

They said whatever action they took that night was counted as a "survive" action, which means they did take an action which would have overridden a doppelganger's "kill" intention (if he is a Dopp, which I have no particular reason to believe, but it's always a possibility).

Fuck it I'm going to go eat breakfast before posting again, I just felt the need to get that out there as soon as possible.