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Author Topic: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?  (Read 1884 times)

Fedor

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Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« on: January 20, 2017, 09:36:23 pm »

Greetings all!

I'm Fedor. I doubt many of you know me, and I'm pretty sure you don't know me for any mods to metals, gems, etc. But I'm a geologist in Real Life and, every time I play Dwarf Fortress seriously, I do so with some heavily modded Earth materials. Also currencies and trade prices get an overhaul. A while back I released a Masterwork mod called Wonderwork that did all that and more.

If I want anyone else to try out and improve this new stuff, I have my work cut out for me. Meph advised me to post on the forum and ask for feedback, suggestions, and perhaps entice you to help get ideas along these lines into a playable state suitable for consideration as core Masterwork features. Seven months later, here I am. Because that's the objective: If I actually do this, and you help me, our aim will be to make Masterwork Dwarf Fortress even better.

Below, I'll describe and share the current state of the raw files. They're still for Masterwork DF V6.1, which came out a WHILE ago. Although I'm a portion of these mods for the current version, I'm not ready to update and release, because I need to hear your thoughts first. Not just about what you see, but what you've been wanting that you don't yet see. A Certain Individual of our mutual acquaintance would especially like to hear thoughts on Jewelry.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 09:42:28 pm by Fedor »
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Fedor

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2017, 09:36:47 pm »

(this is a copy of the old announcement post for Wonderwork. It also includes the old link, which still works. Bless the DFFD!)

Download the text files at: http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=9587

This is the Wonderwork sub-mod for Masterwork V6.1. It rethinks minerals, gems, and DF geology, metals, metal smelting and alloying, and  currency and trade. The races that see substantial changes in how they play are Dwarves, Humans, and Orcs. Gnomes and Hermits see smaller changes. Succubi and Warlocks are least affected.

Its inspirations are the Minerals Mod by Sean Mirrsen, the Wonderment Mod by Fedor, and some very hard thinking about how Meph and collaborators' Masterwork Mod has re-imagined the DF cosmos and every race in it.


CHANGES:

Minerals, gems, and Dwarf Fortress geology:
Something like a third of all DF minerals, and a larger fraction of the DF gems were removed. In their place has arrived a diverse assortment of metal ores, ornamental minerals, all of the inorganic gemstones of greatest importance in the ancient and medieval worlds, and a few missing rocks of particular geologic or economic importance. Every retained or new mineral or rock type is either economically important, decorative, or dangerous, or serves as an independent host presenting a unique variety of mineable substances that are are at least one of these things.


Metals, metal smithing, and alloying:
There were three major techniques employed in the pre-modern world to extract iron from its ores and turn that iron into steel: Bloomeries and hand-hammering, Crucibles, and Blast Furnaces and puddling. Each are now offered in the game within suitable workshops, using more correct reagents, and allocated to races according to level of metallurgical savvy. Several advanced alloys of iron exist, culminating in the superalloy Kordamakest. Whatever your choice, if you go with iron rather than bronze you can expect to burn down forests or mine deeply into vast coal seams to win the fuel and coke your thirsty forges need!

Gold has doubled in value. It is slightly rarer now, and you'll find it dangerous to extract more than a trickle from its ordinary ores, but its purchasing power is the highest of any metal used in trade.

Every boring metal in the game is gone. If it didn't have a unique part to play in Masterwork DF, it got the axe. In the place of the missing and unmourned are several new alloys, offering Orcs, Kobolds, iron-poor Dwarven sites, and the most luxurious palaces and mountainking's thronehalls new character and richness. Gnomes have gotten a few extra metallurgical goodies, as they're the only race with access to the electic-fired Arc Furnance.


Money and trade:
Currencies got rethought. Then they got rethought again. After about three rounds of edits, we have complete, named currencies for Humans, Dwarves (presently still using human names), Orcs, and Gnomes. The first three of these retain their large-scale Masterwork trade economies. Although Gnomes are not yet active traders, I propose to Meph that this race would logically be vigorous wheeler-dealers within the confines of their hidden communities.

For more details, see next post.

Every trade reaction is revised at least to the extent of using named currencies and to accomodate the following progression of coinage metal values:
Copper, rusty iron, lead (3); tin, brass (6); silver, aluminum (12); electrum (24); platinum (40); gold (48)

Here are the currency units for each race:
# Default names and metals (Humans): copper Deniers, tin Groats, silver Shillings, electrum Crowns, gold Sovereigns
# Dwarves: Use the standard coinage metals. Have no special names yet, but eventually should have a unique set.
# Dwarven Legion: copper Denarius/Denarii, brass Bravus/Bravi, silver Argenteus/Argenti, electrum Solidus/Solidi,
#       gold Imperus/Imperi.
# Gnomes: lead Bits, brass Glintings, aluminum Evershines, (possibly titanium-chromium Coronas).
#      The native value of aluminum for Gnomes is 6, half that of this metal for any other race. A purse of Evershines
#      is made with 2 bars, and therefore Evershines have the same value for gnomes as Shillings do for humans.
# Orcs: lead Gobs, rusty iron Gurushs (2x weight), silver Skillinga (singular skilling), platinum Hothwrai (singular
#      Hothwrain), gold Tyrans.
#      Skillinga and Tyrans are both loan-words, from trade with humans and the Dwarven Legion respectively.
# Goblins: The orcish currency, but perhaps not the Tyrans and/or the Hothwrai
# Kobolds: The human or orcish coinage, as they have no native currency. They might use their own names, or just use
#      barter internally.
# Succubi, Warlocks: Not sure (they're more about souls, anyway). For outside trade, they use the human coinage
#      metals and names for now.


There are a bunch of other alterations and tweaks, but I'll let you discover them! have fun! Or !FUN!, whichever.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 09:40:17 pm by Fedor »
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Kars

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2017, 06:12:26 am »

I think it sounds interesting. Especially the alloy metals and getting rid of the more boring metals parts, as I seem to consistently get a few layers of iron and then the rest of them are cassiterite.

"Whatever your choice, if you go with iron rather than bronze you can expect to burn down forests or mine deeply into vast coal seams to win the fuel and coke your thirsty forges need!" - With this I feel the need to ask, will magma still be available as a fuel source for most of these reactions?
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IlFedaykin

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2017, 06:24:37 am »

It seems a nice idea and it could be added, as all the other mods, with a toggling option from the GUI. Meph hasn't been active for a month, tho.
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Kars

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2017, 08:34:50 am »

He was on yesterday, he just hasn't updated
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Fedor

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2017, 09:15:17 am »

Kars,

Dwarves will still get all the magma workshops they currently have, which will continue to make a huge difference.

IlFedaykin,

Up to Meph, really. Many of the changes could easily be handled this way - like the new metals. Others might be more challenging, like trade price adjustments.



Gold. Higher value, unique color.
Code: [Select]
# Gold. The substance humans base their entire economy on, that dwarves sing of as they strike the Earth.
# Third only behind Admantium and Kelshinral (Mithril) in its hold on the imagination, Gold is central to the DF
# cosmos, and there aren't many metals more valuable by volume.
[INORGANIC:GOLD]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME:SOLID:gold]
[STATE_NAME:SOLID_POWDER:gold dust]
[STATE_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:gold]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:molten gold]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:boiling gold]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:48]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:6:14:1][BUILD_COLOR:6:14:1] Yellow on yellow (unique)
[SPEC_HEAT:129]
[MELTING_POINT:11915]
[BOILING_POINT:15141]
[SOLID_DENSITY:19320]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:17310]
[MOLAR_MASS:196967]
[IMPACT_YIELD:175000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:350000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:97]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:175000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:350000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:97] bulk modulus 180 GPa
[TENSILE_YIELD:50000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:100000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:64] young's modulus 78 GPa
[TORSION_YIELD:50000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:100000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:185]
[SHEAR_YIELD:50000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:100000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:185] shear modulus 27 GPa
[BENDING_YIELD:50000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:100000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:64]
[MAX_EDGE:5000]
[ITEMS_HARD]
[ITEMS_METAL]
[ITEMS_BARRED]
[ITEMS_SCALED]
[ITEMS_SOFT]
[STOCKPILE_THREAD_METAL]
[REACTION_CLASS:GOLD_COATING][DO_NOT_CLEAN_GLOB]
[REACTION_CLASS:METAL_DUST]
[REACTION_CLASS:METAL_DUST_GREATER]
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 12:33:48 pm by Fedor »
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IlFedaykin

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2017, 11:12:12 pm »

He was on yesterday, he just hasn't updated
He keeps logging in but hasn't posted anything in the last month. (if I haven't missed something he also left a release halfway through)
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zakhad

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2017, 11:56:04 am »

On his twitter or was it reddit I read a while ago was in the middle of a bike trip that'd last until February.
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Fedor

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2017, 09:49:05 pm »

Working away. Here's the metal Kelshinral.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Fedor

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 01:45:07 pm »

Still thinking about currency and trade. Here's the Screw Press reactions for currency without a quality multiplier.

Currency could be a type of tool if we want to give money unique names, with Dwarves, Humans, and Orcs all getting their own. The reactions below provide a set of such names for Orcs that made sense in the old version of Masterwork, but might not be suitable now (TBD).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Amostubal

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2017, 03:32:17 pm »

interesting.  too bad you can't turn this into actual coins that are in stacks of say 500 and then reformat them into named coins like the ones you get from the forging.

so following the concept.... orcs could receive all their coins as they do now, but they wouldn't be functional they would be treated as if they were blanks, at which point they would be tossed into a screwpress and reformatted into valid coins....   

I'm bored with what I'm currently working on... I'm going to play around with a few concepts...
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Fedor

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2017, 04:22:38 pm »

interesting.  too bad you can't turn this into actual coins that are in stacks of say 500 and then reformat them into named coins like the ones you get from the forging.

so following the concept.... orcs could receive all their coins as they do now, but they wouldn't be functional they would be treated as if they were blanks, at which point they would be tossed into a screwpress and reformatted into valid coins....   

I'm bored with what I'm currently working on... I'm going to play around with a few concepts...
I look forward to your take, but let me drop the old-style named currency objects here, just to make sure the previous post was clear.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Amostubal

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2017, 08:31:01 pm »

okay I played around with it and I hit on what I think was a failure due to reserve words.... but here's the final raw:
Code: [Select]
New Items:
[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_ORC_FRANK]
[NAME:frank:franks]
[CLASS:FRANK]
[SIZE:1]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1:1:bounce:bounces:NO_SUB:1]

[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_ORC_FRANK_BLANK]
[NAME:blank frank:blank franks]
[CLASS:FRANK]
[SIZE:1]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1:1:bounce:bounces:NO_SUB:1]

[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_NON_ORC_FRANK]
[NAME:foreign frank:foreign franks]
[CLASS:FRANK]
[SIZE:1]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1:1:bounce:bounces:NO_SUB:1]

test reactions:
[REACTION:CREATE_ORC_COIN_BLANK]
    [NAME:magically create blank orc coins for nothing.]   
    [DESCRIPTION:test reaction to create blank orc coins.]
    [BUILDING:ORC_COIN_PRESS:CUSTOM_A]
[PRODUCT:100:500:AMMO:ITEM_ORC_FRANK_BLANK:INORGANIC:COPPER]

[REACTION:TURN_BLANKS_INTO_ORC_COINS]
    [NAME:magically turns blanks into orc coins.]   
    [DESCRIPTION:test reaction to turn blanks into orc coins.]
    [BUILDING:ORC_COIN_PRESS:CUSTOM_B]
[REAGENT:a:500:AMMO:ITEM_ORC_FRANK_BLANK:INORGANIC:NONE]
[PRODUCT:100:500:AMMO:ITEM_ORC_FRANK:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:a:NONE]
[AUTOMATIC]

[REACTION:CREATE_ORC_COIN_FOREIGN]
    [NAME:magically create foreign coins for nothing.]   
    [DESCRIPTION:test reaction to create foreign coins.]
    [BUILDING:ORC_COIN_PRESS:CUSTOM_C]
[PRODUCT:100:500:AMMO:ITEM_NON_ORC_FRANK:INORGANIC:COPPER]

[REACTION:TURN_FOREIGN_INTO_ORC_COINS]
    [NAME:magically turns foreign into orc coins.]   
    [DESCRIPTION:test reaction to turn foreign coins into orc coins.]
    [BUILDING:ORC_COIN_PRESS:CUSTOM_D]
[REAGENT:a:500:AMMO:ITEM_NON_ORC_FRANK:INORGANIC:NONE]
[PRODUCT:100:500:AMMO:ITEM_ORC_FRANK:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:a:NONE]
[AUTOMATIC]

And there you go.  Basically I couldn't give them the name of coin:coins it would reject them instantly.  I could have the reactions say coin I could even have the item say coin in the name, but putting coin in the CLASS had it fail.... now you have stacks of coins just like before.  same process you are using about taking previously pressed coins and passing them on as you was doing. But we wouldn't have to change all of our current price systems due to coins being individually.... also later we could make a coin gun.... and shoot our money all over the place....  I always wanted a coin gun.   No new materials necessary.  We could just have each race have a different name for their coins and set them up to consider all the other races coins to be called the same thing but foreign... this way they are just reprocessed through another coin press, and pop them out the other side as proper coins without quality modifications and we don't have to loose the skills gains that are associated with trading, raiding, ransoming, etc.

oh and from the language files:
<W:COIN><N:0111110001:coin:coins><V:coin:coins:coined:coined:coining><T:DWARF:omtag:ELF:thiri:GOBLIN:lazaz:HUMAN:rumoth:ORC:gazatala:SUCCUB:ondende:KOBOLD:ebabam:NAGA:hsimeecki:NECRO:zyelben>
<W:COINAGE><N:0111110001:coinage:coinages><T:DWARF:detnir:ELF:icerisa:GOBLIN:smrang:HUMAN:edlekor:ORC:thakhamalaghak:SUCCUB:guxilil:KOBOLD:empsompsibanonty:NAGA:nsenuus:NECRO:mazar>

I'm not sure where you got your words, I'm not familiar with them...  but there's some suggestions.  I had already removed money and currency from the languages along with most 'economic terms'  just spotted them by searching for coin in the file.  if people want to go with this... then whatever word you use I'll need to edit coin to reflect that.

EDIT: and I had to give it an attack, that is why I gave it low numbers and bounce:bounces lol.... I could see coin guns to train ranged attackers, by building a training range where you shoot a captive, then later collect the coins to melt down....
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 08:45:56 pm by Amostubal »
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Fedor

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2017, 09:35:59 pm »

I personally see no benefit - and clear downsides - to keeping 500-unit stacks. What downsides?

1. If they get split up, it is possible to get terrible item spam. This makes gameplay more tedious and hastens death-by-CPU.
2. If a way to split them up (say by firing them) is used, the individual coins or ammo can be melted to get a LOT more metal then making the stack cost. I personally find this to be almost unacceptable, as it's making gold out of thin air.

Basically, coins are hard-coded. There's SO MUCH we simply cannot do with them (at least, not by making edits to the text files).

I also strongly recommend we not use ammunition as a currency. No in-genre rationale. Not enough control over weight, value, or cost to make. But, more than anything else, you get CRAZY high melt returns from a stack of 500 ammo! See http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Melt_item.

Objects of TYPE_TOOL avoid all of these problems - that's why I used them. Unless DF has changed the rules on me, the SIZE and MATERIAL_SIZE given in my previous post should yield consistent, understandable weights, costs in bars to make, and melt yields. All of this is critical for any coinage based on precious metal value.

In short: I still think that we're faced with a choice of coins or named tools, and I lean towards the latter.

Because of these (and a few other) arguments, I re-cast all of the MDF V6 trade and raid reactions. A couple of examples follow.

Code: [Select]
[REACTION:BUY_ANVIL]
[NAME:Buy anvil for 1 tyran]
[BUILDING:CARAVAN_GENERAL_ORC:CUSTOM_A]
[REAGENT:coins:1:TOOL:COIN_TYRANS:INORGANIC:GOLD] 1 purse of tyrans
[PRODUCT:100:1:ANVIL:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:IRON]
[SKILL:POTTERY] #scribe

[REACTION:BUY_ANTHRACITE]
[NAME:Buy 6 anthracite for 1 tyran]
[BUILDING:CARAVAN_GENERAL_ORC:CUSTOM_SHIFT_A]
[REAGENT:coins:1:TOOL:COIN_TYRANS:INORGANIC:GOLD] 1 purse of tyrans
[PRODUCT:100:6:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:ANTHRACITE]
[SKILL:POTTERY] #scribe

The changes I made were to:
1. Use items of type TOOL.
2. Revalue based on the new material values.
3. Make trade prices internally consistent, based on a common understanding of what factors drive merchant profit margin.
4. Handle additions and deletions made elsewhere in the Wonderwork mod.
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Fedor

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Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2017, 09:52:57 pm »

Where did the names for currency come from?

For humans (and Dwarves): They're all medieval Anglo-French units of currency, intended to be (relatively) recognizable by English speakers without being over-familiar. I was going for a "commonspeech" vibe, to use Tolkien's term.
For the Dwarven Legion (which may not exist in MDF any longer): Roman units of currency (with some approximations).
For the Orcs: These are a bit more varied. "Gobs" is simply a word I thought might be appropriate. "Skilling" is based on the Scandinavian equivalent of "Shilling" (a large silver coin), and links up with the origin of the noble titles used for this race. "Hothwrain" is just a personal coining, intended to envoke cold and glitter. For gold, I imagined the orcs not having a name of their own, and therefore choosing to adopt a word that might exercise a dark appeal for them: "Tyrans".


All of these names are very much open to discussion!
The objective here should be the strongest and most evocative set of names for each race. Where MDF shines is the depth and diversity of gameplay for each of multiple species. We can make a good thing even better here.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 09:59:12 pm by Fedor »
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