Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.  (Read 6554 times)

SkeleBret

  • Bay Watcher
  • shudders and begins to move!
    • View Profile
    • I make YouTube videos
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2017, 03:03:34 am »

"The reason this fortress only uses BRONZE will BLOW YOUR MIND!"

"7 surprising easy ways to improve labor efficiency! Number 4 will shock you!"

"This swordsdwarf ONLY uses obsidian becau..."

"You will NEVER eat PLUMP HELMETS again after reading this!"

"An elf and a kobold?! You will NOT expect what happens next!"

mikekchar

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2017, 04:20:59 am »

Literally only people who were directly related to a bandit will ever get mad, and even they will point out that you are a hero as they spit and call you a murderer for killing their asshole criminal child or whatnot.

Interesting... That's not been my experience.  One town thought I was an unhinged lunatic while the other thought I was a protector of the people.

Quote from: dillonsup
The thing is, Were are missing a feature that worked in previous verisons. This feature being, the ability to turn on your civ, by attacking other citizens, They didn't get some kind of "law enforcement" after you, They took matters in there own hands, they attacked you, because you were named an enemy.

I'm trying to find a way to explain a different way of looking at it, so if I fail, please forgive me.  I appreciate that you preferred the old functionality, but I think it's a good example of the downsides of the way Toady does development.  He's put place holder code in somewhere for bits that he hasn't fleshed out yet.  In this case, "What should happen when someone does something bad?"  Well, people who see it should spread the knowledge and there should be some negative consequences.  How will we model that?  Well, hell, that's way too complicated for now.  Let's say I just make them an enemy of the civ (some magical, divine stamp on their forehead) if they do something horrible and then everyone will attack them after that.  OK... easy to implement.

And for years, that never changes.  Until one day he says, "I'm finally going to start working on the spread of knowledge".  What happens when someone does something bad?  Oh, you get a bad reputation and people spread rumours about you.  Eventually everyone hates you.  Now we can finally get rid of that place holder code.  Hooray!

Except some people really liked the old way it worked.  Just look at sieges after world activation.  What? I don't have hundreds of goblins poofing into existence every six months to fall on to my weapons traps!?  It's an outrage!  This game is broken!  I don't care that there aren't goblins for 600 miles in every direction and that there are 20k humans buffering my fortress from the nearest goblin civilisation.  This game has always been about sieges.  Now it's just boring.  And, I can totally sympathise with this feeling while still being happy that world activation is a thing now.

The worst part is that it takes such a long time to get it to the point Toady is aiming for.  You really *do* want the justice/criminal code.  What happens in real life if you go on a killing spree?  People don't jump out of doorways to attack you on sight.  You end up on the 11:00 news and the police come after you.  If you are powerful enough the military comes after you.  Back in the old days, you might have vigilante groups being formed to hunt you down, but if you were powerful enough, they just left you alone for fear that you would kill everyone.  That's how warlords came to power.  Having people trying not to get in your way because you killed an entire village is *much* more reasonable that having them rush after you to their death.  Kobolds cowering in fear and crying as the adventurer commits genocide is pretty much *exactly* what happens in real life (unfortunately).

So the current code is an improvement over the hard coded place holder, from a perspective of moving the game forward.  The problem is that we have a gap in functionality.  That gap has *always* been there, though -- just in a different form.  We had ridiculous behaviour from the NPCs (which some people happened to enjoy).  That behaviour is gone, but we *still* don't have vigilante groups coming after you, or the military being dispatched.  You don't have people challenging you to a duel because they want to test their strength against you.  None of that will happen until this spread of knowledge code runs its course.

But like I said, it's not like that's the only lack of functionality in the game.  It's rife with lack of functionality.  Even though I appreciate that it used to work a certain way and you found it fun, I think it's incorrect to say that the previous functionality was any more correct than the current functionality.  Both are a long way off from what is intended.
Logged

peasant cretin

  • Bay Watcher
  • [MEANDERER][GNAWER]
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2017, 10:05:48 am »

Toady has said there is only so much difference between the bandit leader of a camp and the lady/lord of a hamlet; one having been able to consolidate power, the other only an insurgent. I think Toady and Three Toe have been working toward a nicely undefined world. Some concessions toward ease of identification (I have nothing for you) were made at the expense of discovering the world and its varying allegiances. "I have nothing for you" being a gamey identifier, puts you at odds with the non-established group, and removes the sense of choice you'd want in choosing sides. It's cosmetic, but changes the overall feel. YMMV of course.
Logged

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2017, 05:15:08 pm »

It's nice having some way for people to recognize that bandits and criminals aren't just those weird dudes who live in the catacombs, but actually a problem for the city.

Complaining that they don't zerg rush you and saying the game is broken is like saying that you prefer the constant insurrections and horsepiles we got in 42.01, was it amusing as hell and fun in a way? Sure!

I was endlessly amused by every single keep turning into a gore covered charnel house while thousands of horses trotted around outside.

That one sentence is the sort of thing which just doesn't happen in other games, but it's a bug, not a feature.
Logged

Jako98145

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2017, 05:46:19 pm »

I don't know, the system kinda works.  I mean, if you saw some random guy walk into a tavern and lob a patron's head of with a glistening scimitar, would you rush him with a butter knife, or fear for your life?  At least guards and soldiers will usually defend civilians if they see these actions, especially when it comes to a lord--even though some soldiers are inept, and decide to sit back and watch their lords/ladies be disemboweled.

And as far as bandits go, the fact that they don't attack on sight will at least permit you to join them.  Bandits have scruples too, I guess.

But, overall, I will agree that there should be more repercussions for ruthlessly slaughtering every innocent being you come across, but I guess we have to wait 20 years for the justice system.

On a side note, this artifact update might at least generate some interesting conflict with civs.

Logged

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2017, 06:18:29 pm »

I did something with my recent modding that ended up with roaming squads of soldiers in every town and it is awesome but I have literally no clue why it is happening.

They always trigger ambushes but if you're a hearthperson they just say hi and wander off, and they aren't bandits so I just leave them alone generally.

If you yield they will just wander off even if they don't know you, so that's a thing too.

Sometimes they aren't always the usual soldiers... lemme know if you see what's wrong here:


Also an example of bandits rushing to battle me, I had to kill five or six before the rest tried to panic and run off:
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 06:54:35 pm by Max™ »
Logged

dillonsup

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2017, 09:49:59 pm »

-Snip-

I agree, I would love to see the Justice system, but we all know that's probably not coming till atleast 2018. I however much prefer the older placeholder code, Hell Today could easily make new placeholder code, Such as if you Kill more then 2 people and people know about, Then you will automatically become an enemy to that civ.

Idk I'm probably gonna attempt to mod this into the game, Wish me luck.
Logged

mikekchar

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 06:18:59 am »

Idk I'm probably gonna attempt to mod this into the game, Wish me luck.

Definitely go for it!  If you want it, then there are probably lots of other people who want it too.  Good luck :-)
Logged

Rumrusher

  • Bay Watcher
  • current project : searching...
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 11:36:52 am »

yeah you get alot of fun out of messing with civ ethics, do be warn you might crash the game.
still annoyed I have to gut creature mods out of an adv crafting reaction pack because they wanna fix adventure mode with discipline skills which funny enough doesn't work on adventurers so everyone in the world will be warrior machines but the adventurer who would still cry on sight of violence.
Logged
I thought I would I had never hear my daughter's escapades from some boy...
DAMN YOU RUMRUSHER!!!!!!!!
"body swapping and YOU!"
Adventure in baby making!Adv Homes

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2017, 03:41:57 pm »

It is funny because my initial response was to assume they just had tears on their eyes because your eyes are always moist or too dry, until Toady confirmed the whole "I have no control over my mouth, but I must scream" response.
Logged

Jako98145

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2017, 05:44:46 pm »

Okay, I just added +3 discipline tokens to all civilized beings, and I made the dwarfs and humans warmongering savages who abhor peace and tranquility.  Well, I ended up attacking a group of nobles in my adventurer's city, and, while one noble fought back relentlessly with a scroll--you'd think he would've chosen his knife, but to each their own, I guess--the one soldier in the area rushed in and did nothing.  So, taking advantage of this ridiculous situation, I asked him to join me, which he begrudgingly did...At least he didn't join me in slaughter.

On the bright side, though, legends mode has some pretty interesting stories because of the perpetual war and unwavering will of the people.
Logged

Rumrusher

  • Bay Watcher
  • current project : searching...
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2017, 02:08:39 pm »

It is funny because my initial response was to assume they just had tears on their eyes because your eyes are always moist or too dry, until Toady confirmed the whole "I have no control over my mouth, but I must scream" response.
love that response as it makes all stories told here in a horror context of forcing someone against their will.
so playing pacifically usually lead to a tale of some spirit wanting some bum to write several books and build a town.
max playthrough more of a khorne follower.
Logged
I thought I would I had never hear my daughter's escapades from some boy...
DAMN YOU RUMRUSHER!!!!!!!!
"body swapping and YOU!"
Adventure in baby making!Adv Homes

Random_Dragon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Psycho Bored Dragon
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2017, 02:14:51 pm »

Actually...I have an idea. Humans, dwarves and such have the [BENIGN] token. What happens if you remove that?

Giving them natural discipline ensures that IF they react to hostility, they're more likely to choose fight than flight, but I don't yet know whether it increases the odds of them actually reacting in the first place.
Logged
On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2017, 04:19:20 pm »

It is funny because my initial response was to assume they just had tears on their eyes because your eyes are always moist or too dry, until Toady confirmed the whole "I have no control over my mouth, but I must scream" response.
love that response as it makes all stories told here in a horror context of forcing someone against their will.
so playing pacifically usually lead to a tale of some spirit wanting some bum to write several books and build a town.
max playthrough more of a khorne follower.
Hey, I don't just...

*remembers last adventurer where a goblin town had squads bugging me*
*ended up leaving 60 kills later*
...well played, Rumrusher.
Logged

Rumrusher

  • Bay Watcher
  • current project : searching...
    • View Profile
Re: Adventure mode has broken for 2 years. Here's why.
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2017, 08:31:25 pm »

Actually...I have an idea. Humans, dwarves and such have the [BENIGN] token. What happens if you remove that?

Giving them natural discipline ensures that IF they react to hostility, they're more likely to choose fight than flight, but I don't yet know whether it increases the odds of them actually reacting in the first place.
kinda wonder why you want to make humans and dwarves into mortal Goblins but really their ethics of neutral and enemy are set to yes kill always.
Logged
I thought I would I had never hear my daughter's escapades from some boy...
DAMN YOU RUMRUSHER!!!!!!!!
"body swapping and YOU!"
Adventure in baby making!Adv Homes
Pages: 1 [2] 3