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Author Topic: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?  (Read 15166 times)

Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #135 on: January 11, 2017, 03:33:44 pm »

Let's move on from this debacle.

Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. Probably as splitting a sequel as possible--some would argue it's much better, others will tell you it's trash compared to Jedi Outcast. Thoughts?

Personally--I'm playing through Jedi Outcast right now. Despite the Wonkiness of the SP, and there are some oversights, AND it feels a little rushed. The story--so far--feels much better than Academy. On the other hand... Academy has much better lightsaber combat... and--I think--the different forms add a lot. Though medium stance sucks dick.

EDIT: Also ya, I hope a new engine is in the works rather than an upgraded one. The Witcher really puts Bethesda to shame in that department.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #136 on: January 11, 2017, 03:35:24 pm »

I actually thought lightsaber combat in Jedi Outcast felt more satisfying.  Maybe cause it was rare, but the first lightsaber fight in Jedi Outcast was way more exciting than anything in Academy.
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Wiles

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #137 on: January 11, 2017, 03:35:56 pm »

For sequels I didn't like I think Empire: Total War takes the cake for me. I didn't have a lot of money at the time it came out so my gaming budget was very tight. That just made the disappointment that much worse when I realised what a piece of garbage that game was. It was the first time I had ever purchased a PC game that was incredibly broken and buggy on release. Sadly that sort of thing is super common these days but E:TW was my first real run in with it on a AAA release. I just remember being so angry that I wasted 70$ on a broken game that I didn't bother buying any PC games for a long time after that. I also remember being peeved that I had to install third party drm (steam). I use steam all the time now but I was against the idea at first :P.

I was also pretty disappointed with Neverwinter Nights 2. The story in the original NWN wasn't particularly good but it was decent enough to get me to play through the game. For the second game it seemed like they had hired a bunch of high school kids to write their story. The story was so poorly written that I turned the game off in disgust, uninstalled it and never played it again.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #138 on: January 11, 2017, 03:38:23 pm »

I actually thought lightsaber combat in Jedi Outcast felt more satisfying.  Maybe cause it was rare, but the first lightsaber fight in Jedi Outcast was way more exciting than anything in Academy.

Yes, I have yet to reach that point... I'm only on Nal Hutta, and unlike Academy you actually have to use various weapons other than your handy dandy plasma stick to beat levels. Which are admittedly better designed and populated than Academy's. Imagine my surprise as I was immediately disintegrated after stepping out of the bar.
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Krevsin

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #139 on: January 11, 2017, 03:41:15 pm »

Morrowind has a terrible combat system and an overly complicated character progression that seems to be complicated for no reason other than wanting to emulate Daggerfall and you can imagine why that'd be a poor decision. It's also stuck in that particular visual hell of early 3D games that tried their hardest at depicting vaguely realistic surroundings only to age about as well as an ice cube in the summer sun of the Sahara desert.

While its story isn't really anything to write home about (oh no there's an evil cult here and they're trying to do evil things and you have to stop them before they do an evil thing!), what is good about it is the way it's structured. Unlike Skyrim, Morrowind straight up tells you during one of the first quests that you cannot do it and that you should go out, do some sidequests and then come back to it. This forces the player to go out and explore the world and learn about it on their own which actually makes it feel like you're exploring a strange new land in which you are as much a stranger as your player character. This, coupled with the fact that the plot is for the most part not urgent and allows you to take your time with sidequests makes the experience feel much more relaxed, when you can walk away from the main plot and return to it after sidequests and not feel this jarring disconnect of being treated like you just came running from the previous storyline quest when you've in reality spent hours picking flowers in the wilderness.

The lack of the typical bethesda "fast travel to anywhere you've already been" system also makes Morrowind feel bigger than many later bethesda titles despite being objectivelly smaller, simply because the player is forced to see more of it. Likewise the world feels more cohesive because the player has to walk to places of interest, with the only way to somewhat bypass this being the Siltstriders which only take you to certain points on the map, mainly settlements and outposts. After that, you're on your own. Having to walk the roads through the length of the game gives the player a level of familiarity with Morrowind that most modern Bethesda games only have for cities and their immediate surroundings. People become familliar with the very land of Morrowind in a non-abstract, "real" way because they know what turns they have to take on roads to get to cities instead of just where the cities are roughly located on a map.

Somewhat tied to this is an entirely personal reason for me, because to me Morrowind feels more like my own adventure because people give me actual directions to places instead of waypoints to follow. One of my favourite parts of Morrowind for me is having to find the elusive Ashlanders since I have to follow signs in the environment and instructions people and lore told me. It can get frustrating but the payoff feels all the sweeter for it.

Likewise, the fact that the world is open but the encounters within it are structured and not adjusted to your level gives you a sense of progression when you return to an area you struggled with before and have no problem clearing it out (apart from the obvious but more on that later). What further enhances this sense of progression is the fast travel system, or rather lack thereof. You start off having to go everywhere either on foot or via siltstrider. By the end of the game, you can fly around. You go from peasant to godlike hero within the span of one game and the progression feels entirely natural and is reinforced by this change that adjusts the very basics of how you play the game.

So Morrowind has all that going for it. But I can never just drop myself into a game of Morrowind and mess around like I can in Skyrim. I have to sit down and have proper sessions with it.

Part of it is the combat. The idea of combat in a 3D, first person space that is based entirely on percentile chances to hit is frankly ludicrous. It is abysmall and apalling and I hate it. It makes combat a chore, a slog that you feel like you have no real input in and as such really inappropriate in a game that is all about your choices and their consequences. Just a series of clicks that you have no input in.

Likewise, the character creator and advancement tools are far too archaic. While they do allow for different builds in some ways they also impair the game and the player in others. For example there's no reason why you wouldn't pick athletics as one of your skills because without it your movement speed will be abysmal. In a game such as Morrowind, where you have to do a lot of walking, not having Athletics will make your early hours a living hell because you'll trudge at a snail's pace until the skill is built up.

A lot of the problems with this are mostly problems of presentation, the game just doesn't do a very good job of telling you what skills do what. And because some skills are essential you will spend long hours just grinding them up to a satisfactory level and your game will be gimped for it.

Finally, the environments. While I lauded them earlier, they also deserve to be criticized because large swathes of them are barren and uninteresting. Most of this has to do with the game's engine and its age, but I still feel they could have worked around that a bit better (maybe say by making the world a bit smaller or leading the roads through more visually interesting locales). It oftentimes feels like the designers bit off more than they could chew with the size and scope of the world.

And that's my thoughts on Morrowind. A very well structured game with a decent story that is severely gimped by some baffling design decisions and overall age.
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Retropunch

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #140 on: January 11, 2017, 03:43:48 pm »

Jedi Knight 2 had an awesome bit in it where there are two characters (I can't for the life of me remember which ones) have a light saber fight - it's a 'proper' fight, so you don't know which one will win and therefore as to what happens next. I played it through a number of times to get the different one to win.

At the time, this absolutely melted my mind. Whilst it might have just been a coin flip somewhere, it was an amazing prelude to what was to come with AI.



As far as NWN/2 went, I never, ever got into them even though everyone sang their praises. I found the stories incredibly bland (and dealing with really boring issues comparatively) and the gameplay pretty clunky.
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nenjin

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #141 on: January 11, 2017, 03:49:04 pm »

Jedi Outcast Light Saber play was superior to Jedi Academy, absence of fruity dual styles or no. I had a solid group of people I regularly dueled with, and all of them tried Academy for about a week before going back to Outcast.
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Neonivek

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #142 on: January 11, 2017, 03:49:48 pm »

Quote
A lot of the problems with this are mostly problems of presentation, the game just doesn't do a very good job of telling you what skills do what

Ahh the days back when manuals existed and people would read them.
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Retropunch

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #143 on: January 11, 2017, 03:52:41 pm »

Quote
A lot of the problems with this are mostly problems of presentation, the game just doesn't do a very good job of telling you what skills do what

Ahh the days back when manuals existed and people would read them.

I remember the Ultima - Pagan had an awesome manual with it - it was all in universe but did a fantastic job of explaining what everything was.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #144 on: January 11, 2017, 03:53:49 pm »

Quote
A lot of the problems with this are mostly problems of presentation, the game just doesn't do a very good job of telling you what skills do what

Ahh the days back when manuals existed and people would read them.

Topically, Morrowind was one of the first games I actually had to read the manual for, lol. Oblivion too.

Jedi Outcast Light Saber play was superior to Jedi Academy, absence of fruity dual styles or no. I had a solid group of people I regularly dueled with, and all of them tried Academy for about a week before going back to Outcast.

Guess I just have to play more Outcast. I intend to finish the SP at least.
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Krevsin

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #145 on: January 11, 2017, 03:54:18 pm »

Quote
A lot of the problems with this are mostly problems of presentation, the game just doesn't do a very good job of telling you what skills do what

Ahh the days back when manuals existed and people would read them.
A salient point, however I argue that a game should be self-contained for you see, in my modern times I do not have a manual that I can reference at any point I desire. Except the scanned PDF but whenever I alt tab from the game to it, I run the risk of the game crashing or freezing my computer up and of course alt-tabbing out of a game to look something up is something that tends to take you out of the experience a bit more than merely looking down at a booklet in your hands.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2017, 03:56:56 pm »

Quote
A lot of the problems with this are mostly problems of presentation, the game just doesn't do a very good job of telling you what skills do what

Ahh the days back when manuals existed and people would read them.
A salient point, however I argue that a game should be self-contained for you see, in my modern times I do not have a manual that I can reference at any point I desire. Except the scanned PDF but whenever I alt tab from the game to it, I run the risk of the game crashing or freezing my computer up and of course alt-tabbing out of a game to look something up is something that tends to take you out of the experience a bit more than merely looking down at a booklet in your hands.

Ah but if that's the route you take, I'd rather have to read up on how the game works than have a tutorial break the fourth wall for me!
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Krevsin

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #147 on: January 11, 2017, 03:58:51 pm »

Depends entirely on how the tutorial is done. If it's in the tedious "first hour of the game is a tutorial stage" way modern games seem so fond of then yes, it would be tedious and annoying.

However if it took say the form of a pop-up when one puts their cursor over a stat, revealing helpful and vital information, that would be much less intrusive.

My problem isn't a desire to be a "casual", I merely want the game to explain to me how to play it on its own without relying on external media. I do not have to read a manual when I go watch a film to have the intricacies of how to watch it to the utmost of my enjoyment, neither do I do that with books or music or other forms of art.

Old games I understand, there were limitations of the storage format. However Morrowind was released in 2003. on CD. for consoles. I believe a mouseover popup with information could be accomodated.

edit: This kind of cuts into a deeper problem with all RPGs with custom characters, which is the need for the player to create a character and their stats without actually knowing how those stats will impact the game. Sure you can read manuals, tooltips and the like but you won't really know how playing that character is like until you're actually playing the game.

also seriously fuck athletics. It's a good idea, to change the speed of your character but Morrowind is all about you walking to places. As such it's vital for you to have it. And if you do not choose it you have to redo the character creation all over again unless you WANT to trudge through the first few hours of the game like you're a goddamn snail. Make it a stamina bar for sprinting or running but keep the player's walking speed and run speed constant. That way it's easy to comprehend and it has tangible effects on the game without making the first few hours of it a horrible slog of moving through treacle.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 04:09:16 pm by Krevsin »
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Virtz

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #148 on: January 11, 2017, 04:07:56 pm »

Let's move on from this debacle.

Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. Probably as splitting a sequel as possible--some would argue it's much better, others will tell you it's trash compared to Jedi Outcast. Thoughts?

Personally--I'm playing through Jedi Outcast right now. Despite the Wonkiness of the SP, and there are some oversights, AND it feels a little rushed. The story--so far--feels much better than Academy. On the other hand... Academy has much better lightsaber combat... and--I think--the different forms add a lot. Though medium stance sucks dick.
Story of Jedi Academy felt like generic expanded universe garbage, yeah, but... I'm gonna say the level architecture was better. Jedi Outcast felt like it took lessons from the late 90s, where you had to look really hard to find some convoluted pathway towards progress. And it had nonsense situations where the character would be unable to progress if not for a fortunately placed random explosion that dropped a beam that let him go up into a ventilation shaft. Like I'm kind of exaggerating (although I swear that really did happen at some point), but I can't stand that kind of level design.

Plus Jedi Academy had the train level. Every action game should have a train level.

EDIT: Also ya, I hope a new engine is in the works rather than an upgraded one. The Witcher really puts Bethesda to shame in that department.
Shame they can't make a good combat system, tho.

I was also pretty disappointed with Neverwinter Nights 2. The story in the original NWN wasn't particularly good but it was decent enough to get me to play through the game. For the second game it seemed like they had hired a bunch of high school kids to write their story. The story was so poorly written that I turned the game off in disgust, uninstalled it and never played it again.
I would advise you to get friends to play this via co-op with, and enjoy it as a train wreck you can laugh at. To me it was the best example of "so bad it's good" writing in video games.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Worst Sequel(s) you have ever played?
« Reply #149 on: January 11, 2017, 04:09:56 pm »

The train level is great fun--I will say that. As is the Hoth level. Academy's strength for me is that sometimes it's more fun to go around just slicing up bad dudes.
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