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[Neonivek]

Morrowind enters the same territory as other amazing classics.

In that they are still amazing, but there is a lot to forgive in terms of structure, mechanics, and UI. Mostly because the conventions we enjoy today were pioneered by those past games.

Mind you it isn't as bad as some other games I could mention.

Though yes I think that once you get past its limitations... Yeah Morrowind kicks Oblivion + Skyrim combined's butt. Though by all means not everyone will like it.

[Iceblaster]

Fuck it. I suppose my opinion is void because I gave a game a shot and found it to be boring. Just so you know, I did play more than Balmora, but had assumed saying I played to there would give a gauge of how far in I went before deciding it wasn't for me. I'll go back to ruining gaming my playing games I enjoy. Because ya know. Fighting with DnD rolls in a 3d world without any indication you're hitting is a wonderful idea. Among other things. Honestly, I never said Morrowind was shit. I said that I didn't enjoy morrowind. I wasn't attacking the game. I think it's a great game. Just not for me.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

If you don't like a game sure. All these games I've mentioned can stand on their own two feet as individual games, but we'r talking about sequels here and more often than not these games fail their predecessors hardcore.

[Iceblaster]

Honestly, I'm sure Morrowind was thought of as dumbing down Daggerfall when it came out. And daggerfall dumbing down Arena. If TES stayed at the same level of complexity in Daggerfall or Morrowind, they'd probably still be a niche series.

[nenjin]

Fuck it. I suppose my opinion is void because I gave a game a shot and found it to be boring. Just so you know, I did play more than Balmora, but had assumed saying I played to there would give a gauge of how far in I went before deciding it wasn't for me. I'll go back to ruining gaming my playing games I enjoy. Because ya know. Fighting with DnD rolls in a 3d world without any indication you're hitting is a wonderful idea. Among other things. Honestly, I never said Morrowind was shit. I said that I didn't enjoy morrowind. I wasn't attacking the game. I think it's a great game. Just not for me.

To be honest, I was never in love with Morrowind's story.

What I DID like however, was the character building, the way enchanted items worked and crafting your own spells. That shit was rad and gave you something to shoot for. Then Oblivion comes along and make it all idiot proof. No more multi-effect spells, enchanted items can only have passive effects, what they can get is limited to type...and then Skyrim comes along and makes it EVEN simpler, along with completely removing stat points in favor of idiot-proof CoD inspired perk trees.

That's the shit that gets my goat, and while I still call Morrowind the best Bethesda game to date (despite not finding the setting of Morrowind all that interesting.) It's the last time they tried anything even remotely risky with their mechanics. Now if you want to have actual fun with the mechanics, you have to mod the game to hell and back.

[Krevsin]

Alright. Sorry if I sounded hostile. Hoooonestly, this entire time I've been trying to keep the implied tone civil. Honestly, I still do think showing the results in the world if it lets you continue after the end is better, but I can see your points.

And I apologize if I sound overly defensive. I have the poor habit of doing that.

On the original subject of this topic, I say Homeworld 2.

While I wouldn't call it an appalling game or anywhere near the worst, Homeworld 2 has the problem of trying too hard to recreate Homeworld 1's story and failing utterly instead of using Homeworld 1 as a jumping off point to explore the fascinating sci-fi world the developers of that game created. Homeworld 1's story was relatively simple, inspired by the original Battlestar Galactica and several other science fiction shows of that era which shared the same set-up of a group of outcasts on a long odyssey through space, far away from their original home. It wasn't the most innovative story, but it was well-written and delivered the required emotional highs and lows when required and its setting was genuinely interesting.

Homeworld 2 on the other hand prefers to wallow in the shallow end of Homeworld 1's setting and doesn't explore it in any interesting way. While Homeworld 1's story wasn't terribly innovative, Homeworld 2's falls even flatter because it tries so hard to recreate the set-up of the original. So instead of a further exploration of the universe, we get a dull, uninteresting retread.

Worse yet are the changes to the behaviour of units and some really poor design choices. Scaling difficulty sounds great in theory, adapting to the player and keeping them on edge throughout the campaign. In practice it comes off as being deeply unfair and punishing of the players who play well.

Likewise, the choice to change the way projectiles operate from distinct world entities following a trajectory to simple hitscan RNG-based calculations, coupled with changes to the behaviours and formations you are capable of giving to your ships rendered fighters and corvettes nigh useless when frigates and capital ships became available. It removed a fun but mostly optional tactical level from the game and as a result the game oftentimes spirals into the dreaded Wad Of Death problem of RTSes, where the player with the biggest army wins.

However for all its flaws in the story and poor design choices, the game was still for the most part fun to play in Skirmish and had some clever ideas. The ability to target specific parts of larger ships was fun and made them feel like they were something more than just large, slow strike craft with better guns.

It wasn't a bad game, just a terrible sequel to Homeworld.

[Iceblaster]

-snip-

Yes. Because Call of Duty fans are gonna play a medieval fantasy RPG...

I personally prefer Skyrim's system. While it was a bit meh to start out, I grew to like it as I played. Maybe because I didn't dismiss it out of hand because I didn't have as much numbers.

I mean, what did the attributes really affect that was so important that Skyrim didn't let you just get a clear increase from the getgo when leveling up?

And I apologize if I sound overly defensive. I have the poor habit of doing that.

And it's fine. Just thought I'd put my intentions out there.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Honestly, I'm sure Morrowind was thought of as dumbing down Daggerfall when it came out. And daggerfall dumbing down Arena. If TES stayed at the same level of complexity in Daggerfall or Morrowind, they'd probably still be a niche series.

Never played Daggerfall or Arena--but you are partially correct. The internet would indicate Daggerfall was a huge improvement over Arena. When it comes to Daggerfall v Morrowind, Morrowind lost several things. Like a huge procedurally generated map system--I can't speak for gameplay differences. In return for that wild downsizing of the map, they could pack so much more interesting an wonderful things in. If I recall, Daggerfall was mostly empty. Some things were definitely lost between the two games, but Morrowind added so much more it's not nearly as noticeable.

Even Oblivion succeeds in making somethings like spell making more accessible without totally dumbing it down--but Skyrim removed so much, I mean... what is there to really differentiate it from Two Worlds II? Other than polish of course. Two World's II even sports a better magic system.

I mean Morrowind was released only two years after Baldur's Gate II, and it's completely new and original. In comparison, every game does something better than Skyrim does.

Again--not toting on how good Morrowind was, but rather Bethesda's later games inability to break the mould, which historically made their games so interesting.

To be honest, I was never in love with Morrowind's story.

What I DID like however, was the character building, the way enchanted items worked and crafting your own spells. That shit was rad and gave you something to shoot for. Then Oblivion comes along and make it all idiot proof. No more multi-effect spells, enchanted items can only have passive effects, what they can get is limited to type...and then Skyrim comes along and makes it EVEN simpler, along with completely removing stat points in favor of idiot-proof CoD inspired perk trees.

That's the shit that gets my goat, and while I still call Morrowind the best Bethesda game to date (despite not finding the setting of Morrowind all that interesting.) It's the last time they tried anything even remotely risky with their mechanics. Now if you want to have actual fun with the mechanics, you have to mod the game to hell and back.

This is what I'm trying to say here. Skyrim isn't even a bad game--if you had never played another TES game, you would think Skyrim is genius--It's simply not up to the standards Bethesda has set for itself.

-snip-

Yes. Because Call of Duty fans are gonna play a medieval fantasy RPG...

I personally prefer Skyrim's system. While it was a bit meh to start out, I grew to like it as I played. Maybe because I didn't dismiss it out of hand because I didn't have as much numbers.

I mean, what did the attributes really affect that was so important?

One, yes of course they are! What do you mean? I played the fuck out of COD4 while playing Oblivion.

But yo--I... WHAT??? Okay, whatever. In response to the attributes, they affected everything what do you mean? They were a way to fine-tune your character--and thankfully due to the fact that Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind are ARPGs, skill comes in to play as well and you don't have to min-max to be successful.

[Iceblaster]

Going to UESP and looking at what attributes did in Morrowind, as that's what's been brought up the most, basically boils down to 'make your magic better' 'make your health better' and 'make your stamina better' With Charisma and Luck being the odd ones out. Skyrim's 'pick magic, stamina, or health to increase by ten points, removes a lot of the complications and numbers. Makes it easier to figure out what's happening and makes the whole thing quicker and more satisfying. Oblivion never made me feel like my character was getting stronger. Only that I was getting weaker because suddenly I'm behind on health because I didn't level up the right skills to get the ability to add points onto the health stat.

[Neonivek]

Fuck it. I suppose my opinion is void because I gave a game a shot and found it to be boring.

Then its boring... As I said there is a lot to forgive.

Your not at fault for finding the negative qualities of the game to be negative or greater than the positives.

I was trying more to explain the discrepancies between people who think older games are genius and people who find them terrible... then to say that you just don't appreciate it enough

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Anyhoo, isn't Homeworld's story a little outlandish anyways??? I don't know it that well, but it just seems like you conquer the galaxy with a super weapon for revenge.

[nenjin]

I mean, what did the attributes really affect that was so important that Skyrim didn't let you just get a clear increase from the getgo when leveling up?

Because it was about choice. You had nothing to pay attention to in Skyrim. Skills went up as you used them and you got freebie things just for leveling up. Oblivion and Morrowind allowed you to distribute some points from level up to things you didn't want to grind out all the way, and they had actual effects like....

Moving faster. Attacking faster. Jumping higher. Crating better and more complicated spells and items.There was a clear link between what you did and how much better your character performed AND you got some control over it. (Setting aside the whole "I'm leveling too fast just swinging my sword....")

Skyrim took most of that out and didn't put much of it back. I'd say about 80% of the perks were lazy "%X more" offerings, with only a couple changing how your character played. Fallout 3 & 4 are actually pretty good examples of Skyrim's perks as well. "25% more SMG damage", "25% less damage from melee attacks" blah blah blah fuckity blah BORING. This is why I hate how perks are conceived of in most games. Perks should do interesting and unique things, not just be yet another passive damage/life/armor boost.

Going to UESP

You didn't look hard enough.

Makes it easier to figure out what's happening and makes the whole thing quicker and more satisfying

We get it. You find simple gratifying. I find it a waste of my money. Simple is the opposite reason why I play games. If there's nothing to make choices about that I actually feel conflicted over, I might as well dismiss the system entirely. And point in fact vanilla skyrim's perks made the game stupidly easy, to the point I got mods to tone most of it down.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Lol, do you remember the glitch where you could freeze paint brushes midair and climb white-gold tower? Simpler times.

[hector13]

Simpler times.

Apparently not

[Retropunch]

I was amazed at how well Morrowind held up over the years - way better than most other games of that era.

It's a fantastic game, and extremely memorable - that being said, Skyrim was the first game that had proper dragons in it - that was pretty impressive at the time.

My whole annoyance with Bethesda is that they just phone it in with the engine. They've admitted many times that it's all clunky and difficult to work with, but rather than do anything about it they just put a coat of paint on it and keep selling. My issue is that it becomes really evident that they're doing that, and it's starting to wear a bit thin. It's like when you go to a hotel and you can tell everything's falling apart, but they've cleaned it really thoroughly and painted over everything - it just feels slightly like you're being conned - not enough to ask for your money back, but enough to be a bit...meh.

I'm not blaming them for doing it - they're a business after all and they're still making bank. It just feels a shame somehow, and it started to grate on me by the time Fallout 4 came out.

I'm assuming with the new generation being in full swing and stuff they'll basically be forced to upgrade it soon - I can't imagine it's got much more life left in it.