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Author Topic: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth  (Read 6365 times)

Immortal-D

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Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« on: January 04, 2017, 07:19:44 pm »

I've decided to make a serious effort at clothing my Dwarves.  No Dorf shall endure the shame of xX-Silk Thong-Xx ever again!  I thought that the function to extract seeds without destroying the plant was 'process plant to container'.  I tried this, and almost ran out of pig tails :(  I have no clue where they went, but I've started brewing again just to restore my supply.  (My cellar currently holds 3800 urists of booze, so I stopped brewing for a while.)

I kindof have an idea about how to create the WOs, but a second input (no pun intended) would be nice.  However, the sticking point is I can't figure how to extract seeds without brewing.  I want to create a Work Order with the following conditions:

If 'pig tail cloth' <25, extract pig tail seeds first, then weave thread into cloth until 'pig tail cloth' =200
If 'Dwarven Ale' <50, brew pig tails until 'Dwarven Ale' =200

Edit: Bonus point for figuring out how to add dyes to the condition without disrupting the flow.  My first thought is:

If 'ptc' >1, extract dimple cup seeds, then dye thread ; repeat

Thisfox

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2017, 07:34:05 pm »

I'm struggling with this myself right now, although I'm keeping sheep and spinning yarn instead of farming pig tail.

So far I seem to have managed the shearing/spinning part of it (and my sheep are now penned safely in a section of the caverns which I'm walling off into the Fort) and we seem to have thread.... I've switched the Order from "use all cloth" to "use dyed cloth", and discovered this now affects the loom: It will apparently only weave dyed thread now. Okay. So I moved the dyeshop, and now we're dying thread instead of cloth.... but I still seem to have not much cloth for all this work.

Meanwhile everyone is running around in leather trousers, leather shoes, and leather dresses, but I'd really like some wool shirts, dresses and socks.

Advice would be great.
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Immortal-D

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2017, 08:00:48 pm »

Thisfox, my interim solution is much the same.  I have a Sheep pen on the surface; between that and leather trading, I get by using the spartan approach (Robe, Shoes, & Gloves).  Problem is that shearing can only be done once per season per animal.  There are a surprisingly large number of 'process plant' options, and I'm struggling to make sense of them.

Sanctume

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2017, 08:07:24 pm »

1 pig tail seed to farm plot = harvests pig tail [1] to [5] for spring and autumn.

pig tail [1] (plant) to farmer's workshop (process plant) = pig tail thread [1] + pig tail seed; enable thresher or plant processing labor.

at Loom, make cloth from plant.  Condition, check if pig tail thread is > 5.  I like to at least have 5 thread available in the hospital just in case I don't have silk thread or yarn threads.   Check daily.

at Clothier, I usually have make 1 cloth robe, 1 cloth trouser, and 1 clock socks if plant cloth > 5. Check daily.

p.s. I also do not have stockpile for threads or cloth.  I let it clutter the workshop as a means to slow down production.  If it's cluttered, then that is fine because it means I have plenty in reserves, and my daily make clothing is enough of a production queue.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 08:09:55 pm by Sanctume »
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Immortal-D

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2017, 08:56:06 pm »

So the command is in fact 'process plants to barrel'?  Is there any way to specificy which plants?  I tried setting up a stockpile for just pig tails and linking it, since I don't want my Farmers wasting time on getting seeds from yams or potatoes ::)

bmxbumpkin

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2017, 09:28:56 pm »

Nope, just "process plant"

Process to barrel is for syrups and such

Process to vial for golden salve

Do a quick websearch for dfwiki process plants
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 09:32:23 pm by bmxbumpkin »
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2017, 09:55:05 pm »

Process plants is always thread regardless, iirc - though this can be aboveground rope reed, hemp, cotton, etc. instead. Well, those are more popular due being year round.

You can use stockpile links/closer placement, burrow restrictions or job-material (dfhack, though you need to use workflow instead of manager with same conditions) to make it use pig tails only.

mikekchar

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2017, 02:29:54 am »

It's a bit of an involved process, but as Fleeting Frames says, the key is having a stockpile of the correct type in proximity.  @Sanctume thread in the hospital is marked unavailable (at least in 0.43.05), so no need to have the qualifier.

I use kanban for my manufacturing processes, so I always pull from demand back to supply.  Here's what I do if you are interested (sorry... it's long).

Generally you want to start backwards so that you don't over supply your stockpiles.  Instead of clothes, let's do bags because it is easier, but it's essentially the same process.  I always want to have 3 empty bags in stock.  So I set up an order in the clothier to produce 1 bag every day with the 'p'roduct condition of at most 3 empty pigtail bags. I set the 'r'eagent condition to at least 1 dyed pigtail cloth.  I then set up a stockpile that will hold at least 3 pigtail bags (that way you can see at  a glance if there is a bug in your supply line).  It is important to use the 't'raits condition to specify 'empty' bag.  You also either have to set the 'm'aterial to 'pig tail' or  'd'escribe the job to make pig tail bags.  Whether or not you want to use the 'dyed' 't'rait is up to you.

Of course, this won't make any bags because we need pigtail cloth.  I make a stockpile for pigtail cloth around the clothier (usually I make 5x5 rooms with the workshop in the middle and stockpiles around the outside -- the stockpile will hold 16 items, which is well more than enough).  NEVER use bins or barrels unless you know exactly what you are doing.  This message is long enough that I don't have time to explain how bins and barrels work, but basically they don't work the way you think they do and it will absolutely break your supply line if you don't know exactly how to use them.  If you accidentally get something in a bin or a barrel, unspecify bins and barrels from the stockpile and dump the bin/barrel, latter reclaiming the items after they have been dumped (huge PITA).

Now you need a loom to make the cloth.  Add an order for 1 pigtail cloth every day (again it is most easy to use 'd'escribe for the cloth type rather than using 'm'aterial in the conditions). 'p'roduct condition of at most 10 or so pigtail cloth (depending on how big your stockpile is).  Hauled items are unavailable, so if your stockpiles take more than a day to haul between, you might end up with too many cloth.  Adjust accordingly.  To be honest, I never need more than 5 cloth in my stockpile.  'r'eagent condition of at least 1 dyed pigtail thread.  You can also set the Workshop options to only used dyed thread, but usually I don't bother because my workflow usually generates the same result.

Again, this will not result in bags because you now need to dye the thread.  Set up a dyer workshop.  In the loom stockpile, take from the dyer workshop and only use links.  This will ensure that the loom stockpile only has dyed thread.  That in turn will mean that virtually every time your loom will use dyed thread unless you actually run out -- in which case it's reasonable to use undyed thread -- that's why I don't set it to only use dyed thread.  You *do* want to turn off autoloom, though.

In the dyer's workshop set an order to dye thread and again 'd'escribe the job as 'pig tail thread'.  Add a 'p'roduct condition for at most 5-10 dyed pig tail thread (the default).  Set a 'r'eagent condition for at least 1 undyed pigtail thread and 1 DYE_CONTAINING (or whatever the trait is.... I forget... it's the default, though).  This time, you are going to want to set up half your stockpile to contain milled dimple cup dye (under food) and half to contain pig tail thread.  Be careful to turn *off* barrels *and* prepared food in the food stockpile (grr... prepared food ends up all over my fortress if I'm not careful).

Again, we want undyed thread in the dyer's stockpile, so what we're going to do is to take from the Farmer's workshop and use only links.  Next add an order in the Farmer's workshop for 'process plant' (*not* any of the other processes, as discussed previously).  You can't specify the material.  So what I do is make a specific farmer's workshop for processing plants and make a stockpile that only contains pigtails (or whatever material you want to process -- or spin if you are doing wool).  The take from the main plant stockpile, only taking from links.  That will mean that you can still brew a few pigtails and it won't all end up as cloth, for instance.  Set a 'p'roduct condition on the job for at most 5-10 undyed pigtail thread ('undyed' is a 't'rait condition and 'pig tail' is a 'm'aterial contition) and at least 1 processable plant (the default).

Finally, you need to make dye.  This one is tricky.  Again make a quern, but locate it far away from any seeds/sweet pods.  Make a stockpile around it that only has dimple cups and takes from the main plant stockpile.  Set up a job for 1 mill to flour job a day with conditions: 'r'eagent at least 1 millable plant and at most 2 DYE_CONTAINING (or whatever the 't'rait is).  Now the trick here is that the UI won't prompt you for the DYE_CONTAINING trait -- look at your dying job to figure out what trait you need.

The other main trick about this is that you need to grow enough dimple cups that your stockpile around the quern always has dumple cups in it.  Otherwise you will make some other kind of flour.  Just keep an eye on it over time to ensure that you keep enough stock and if you run out, up your acreage of dimple cups in the next growing seasons.

After you have all this set up, it is now basically bullet proof.  The cool thing is that apart from running out of pig tails and dimple cups, it is completely reactive.  If you make pig tail clothes in the clothier, the entire system will pull to react to fill the need for more materials.  I've got it set up for a maximum of one job per day, so you will only make 300 cloth a year, so you might have to up the job size to 2 or 3 per day if your demand increases.  However, if you do the same thing with silk, wool and rope reeds, you have basically 1200 cloth production a year, which will probably be way more than you need.

Hope that helps!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 02:31:48 am by mikekchar »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2017, 07:00:32 am »

I have to disappoint Immortal-D: You can't ensure your dorfs don't have to endure the shame of wearing xX-Silk Thong-Xx, since underwear is one kind of clothing you can't make. You'll have to accept donations from goblins and black towers, with a smattering of elven trade for your supply of underwear.

I don't think it was mentioned above, but processing plants also produces seeds, so there's no need to go through any hoops to get seeds for replanting.

I'm not using the manager because I haven't found any single thing it can do properly. Trying to use it to shear sheep, for instance, just results in a lot of job cancellations (you can't set up a condition to check for the availability of unshorn animals). When it comes to clothes, manager conditions can't differentiate between size (thus making manager production lines for each of the fortress races impossible), nor can it take quality into account (I want my citizens to wear masterworks clothes only: the failures are fit only for foreigners). You can't have the manager suspending production during the winter either (which I want to use for R&R).
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Sanctume

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2017, 10:46:56 am »

nor can it take quality into account (I want my citizens to wear masterworks clothes only: the failures are fit only for foreigners). You can't have the manager suspending production during the winter either (which I want to use for R&R).

I've attempted quality control on clothes before.  The best result I've had was to make a stockpile #1 for finished good for armor, head, hand, leg, and feet for material cloth, silk, leather, and yarn for all.  Then I make stockpile #1 give to stockpile #2 where it accepts only masterworks quality from links only. 

As for winter R&R, perhaps a locked door to the workshop; a quick burrow everyone away while you manually forbid the door when the season change. 

Or use profiled workshops, and manually forbid those.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2017, 12:05:34 pm »

My current clothes quality control scheme is to link an inferior quality clothes stockpile to the clothier and have that one give to the trade depot junk disposal stockpile (which is the only one with bins), that is set to take from anywhere. Quality clothes are send to a feeder stockpile that feeds into the Farmer's QS.
Instead of using the manager I give all my orders directly to the workshops and suspend/unsuspend the repeat orders at beginning/end of winter.

Locked doors won't work as my workshop area is just by the entrance to the fortress (it's the first area dug, before dealing with the aquifer). Thus, you have to go through the workshop to get out.
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anewaname

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2017, 12:49:09 pm »

@Immortal-D

Whatever else you learn from this thread, take a moment to learn how to find things in the wiki. Go to ->the wiki and in the upper right corner find the Search box and type in 'pig t'. You will see "DF2014:Pig Tail" in the dropdown box. The wiki articles for the current version of DF will all start with a "DF2014". So when you want to know about any DF thing, look for a "DF2014: YourTopic". If you don't see YourTopic then check your spelling because the wiki has it. Using internet searches will get you there too but not as fast.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2017, 10:29:27 pm »

@Quality/Size Control:
If I wanted to do it, for quality control I'd just use workflow instead of work orders - set it to produce clothes till you have 10 unclaimed masterwork trousers in stock, for instance. Though this is more useful at lower skill levels, when it can vary far more in jobs for your first 7 masterwork beds, for example; at higher skill levels can just predict the rate of masterworks from dwarf focus, attributes, skill and preferences to be somewhere between 1/5 and 1/2, I think.

Sadly, much like with the manager, you can order the large trousers, but you can't check how many trousers of any size you have. Either one needs to do something like using hemp trousers for humans while rope reed ones for dwarves.

(For just human/goblin/elven/dwarven races, could also get away with using "one size fits all" by using clothes sized for hyena/cougar men)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 10:31:00 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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mikekchar

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2017, 11:06:15 pm »

I'm not using the manager because I haven't found any single thing it can do properly.

I think that's a bit disingenuous.  There are many things it can't do, but that's a very different thing that it not being able to do anything.  Fair enough if you prefer not to use it, but saying that it can't do anything properly is incorrect.

Quote
Trying to use it to shear sheep, for instance, just results in a lot of job cancellations (you can't set up a condition to check for the availability of unshorn animals).

Sheep can be shorn every 10 months. Divide your sheep by 10.  That's the number to sheer every month.  You will get some cancellation spam.  But seriously it adds up to a couple per year.  You may get a cancellation every month or so while the system gets set up (i.e. until the sheep are being shorn in a staggered fashion and therefore need to be shorn in a staggered fashion).

I fail to see how this is more trouble than what you do.  Like I said, fair enough if you simply prefer to do it the way you do, but I think it's a bit misleading to say that you get a lot of job cancellations.

Quote
When it comes to clothes, manager conditions can't differentiate between size (thus making manager production lines for each of the fortress races impossible), nor can it take quality into account (I want my citizens to wear masterworks clothes only: the failures are fit only for foreigners). You can't have the manager suspending production during the winter either (which I want to use for R&R).

Yep, it can't do that, but is there *anything* in vanilla that can?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Need help with Work Orders for pig tail cloth
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2017, 04:44:43 am »

Well, I guess that if I had mandate spewers the manager could be used to order what they mandated (and since you can now specify types of crafts when they wanted 6 scepters that would actually work, rather than the previous hit&miss order of a bunch of crafts and hope there'd be enough of the mandated type, which affected both the manager and direct workshop orders).
I should have been more precise to say I haven't found anything I want to do that the manager can do properly and better than just giving the (typically repeat) order to the appropriate workshop (such as the seemingly trivial task of ensuring a supply of sand bags for glass production. If I remember correctly that fell because you can't specify bags because the general category includes chests and I don't care what material the bags are made of, nor do I have any clue of how many bags of a given material I would have available as seed storage just grabs some bag).

I don't have a constant number of sheep: I try to keep two adults of each gender, but they breed and mature, and are slaughtered off, so the numbers vary. My current strategy is to order shearing on repeat at the beginning of the year, which results in a single cancellation spam report when done, which is better than what I get with the manager.

There multi racial fortress caused a number of issues, only some of which were addressed. The need for varying size of clothes is one which was addressed at the basic level, but not really addressed by the manager (the basic level functionality was just retained), and the need to see what the target race of a piece of clothing at a glance is another (so, I've got a bazillion "large trousers" of various kinds, but how many of those are garbage troll invader trousers, and how many can actually be used by my human citizens?).

You can create a complicated web of workshops and and linked stockpiles to manage production of racial and quality clothes, so yes, that part can sort of be done in vanilla by leaving out the manager, but obviously you don't get flow control (beyond repeat orders).

I've been badly burned by some kind of job plugin: it caused jobs of every kind to fall through the cracks and remain listed in the jobs menu, but never taken up again (like the partially built road that remained in that state for decades. I don't remember if I just let it be that way or if I tore it up and rebuilt it), so I steer well clear of those.

I have used the approach to use wool for humans and cloth for the others, and it sort of works.
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