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[Devastator]

* Devastator envisions the wall of politics that will be the town.

[Egan_BW]

I'm crazy, so I think we should obviously do one giant tile-based map containing the town, outposts, mission areas, and the rest of Oro all in one continuous space.

[Radio Controlled]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I disagree with R_C that the system is working "fine." For him, sure, but the system as it is leaves a lot of people waiting for something to do more of ten than not. it's restrictive in that it restricts the availability of action. R_C's 'waffling around the edges' tends to make certain game mechanics (or players! he mentions doing the job of the drivers for them when they are not around) irrelevant for the sake of convenience, which suggests that the system is inconvenient, at best.

actually, I kinda like hte system, but it would be better used in one of thosegames where certain roles are dictated. Like: "Dig: a game ofr 6-10 players. here are the slots available:
Driver, builder (x2), Diver, gunner (x2) fighter (x2)."

As it is, most builds in the game feel useless and irrelevant. the game could run with an automated driver, one fighter to stand guard and kill divers, and the rest o the crew be diver/builders.

PW did ask for our personal opinion, so that's what I gave (I even specified that to an extend). I do think that, while not perfect, the system works well enough to be doable. It might be different for someone with no support skills at all, but honestly, we're only at our second expedition, the next one might be a combat one in which the builders and divers will be the ones to feel useless (and to be terribly honest, I sort of doubt the wisdom of getting no support skills in a game that's presented like dig, though I guess one can't be blamed for thinking there'd be more direct action).

Of course, if there's a better system available that ensures workarounds aren't needed in the first place and helps prevent people from overspecializing, that's fine by me, but I kinda suspect that another rulechange (and the respeccing that brings) would slow things down a lot and kill some of the interest in the game.

Spoiler: I spray this post with Dev-Be-Gone! (click to show/hide)

I don't think you should have edited your action to lower the bell. IC, were you even aware that people were waiting to return? weren't you busy underwater and concentrating on an imminent threat? No one has radioed or even spoken IC to ask for the bell to be lowered, after all. The action feels meta to me. Which is the main reason I haven't lowered the bell myself.

Well, if nothing else there's this:

Find out if we can contact the Bore and tell them to lower the diving bell.

Since I didn't see a reason why he wouldn't be able to contact the bore (given this:

Do we still have radio contact with everyone? If not, who's off the grid?

You're out of contact with Pancaek but thats it.

I thought that gave a good IC reason.

And no, Joshua is in the air above the water right now, so he should've at least seen the events of last turn (including the brobot shooting at the bell). Given all of this, I though there was sufficient reason to justify the action, though if you were to come to a different conclusion I could see the reasons for that. And so, as usual, if pw also deems there to not be enough IC foundation, I'll happily drop it until a better justification comes along. It's really mostly to actually prevent people from having to wait around and be bored.

[Ozarck]

I simply disagreed with your opinion, R_C, not with you expressing your opinion.
Maybe the next location will have something of interest for other builds, but maybe not. Who's to say? We aren't there yet. I'm going by the history of the game so far. And that history has shown certain characters acting freely quite regularly while others twiddle their thumbs and wait. And wait. and wait.

The archetypes suggest a degree of specialization. Early on, as we discussed builds, someone suggested that not maxing out stats was a poor choice, as it gave pretty low odds of succeeding in multiple skills as opposed to decent odds of succeeding in a few skills. And the Bore NEEDS a driver - someone with COntrol. So far, that is the only thing Control is used for, and PW has offered to take that action from us, making Control effectively a dump stat. Same with recover. it's been handwaved away, more or less. Oh, except on one of those mythical combat missions we haven't had (well, that is, everyone but Joshua hasn't had).
And for both of our missions, getting to and from the mission site has been the biggest hurdle, due to lack of drivers, lack of people with move skill, and the complete disinterest shown by builders for doing simple tasks like tying a rope to the Bore (another place in which a stat was handwaved away, though I actually agree here, as it was a simple action that shouldn't have needed a build skill roll.)

See a pattern? Either people are doing a lot of waiting, or various aspects of the mechanics are being handwaved away. both suggest flaws in the system.
I'm not saying the system can't be improved upon and be successful. I am saying that, I feel (my opinion) that as it is, it doesn't work well at all.

Spoiler: seekrit meeting. No Devs (click to show/hide)

 That quote about contacting the Bore: where'd you pull it from? OOC or someplace earlier in teh IC thread? It isn't in the IC thread after I rode the bell up to the Bore, and no one has made an actual request to have it lowered. I'm not arguing that they CAN'T request the bell be lowered. I am saying they HAVEN'T. As for your location, if you are in the air, and have the attention to spare, fine. But it is, as you said, an IC justification for an OOC decision. Up to you(obviously), but I think it would be more IC not to do it.

Though I'm all for people not having to wait around and be bored. But, should the responsibility for moving the action along rest on one player's shoulders?

[piecewise]

Ok, lets put it to a vote then. Who would like me to throw a different system into Dig and who thinks we can or should keep going as is?

I'd probably throw in the crossroads system, which you can view here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7d2fzvbrksy36qy/Crossroads%20-%20Copy.pdf?dl=0

Its basic RTD with some modifications so restating would go fast.

[Rautherdir]

Wait there's a rope?!!? My char has 60 move I probably could have gone up it.

Hmm. After a readthrough of those rules that looks pretty good. Is it an actual poll or what?

[Radio Controlled]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I simply disagreed with your opinion, R_C, not with you expressing your opinion.
Maybe the next location will have something of interest for other builds, but maybe not. Who's to say? We aren't there yet. I'm going by the history of the game so far. And that history has shown certain characters acting freely quite regularly while others twiddle their thumbs and wait. And wait. and wait.

The archetypes suggest a degree of specialization. Early on, as we discussed builds, someone suggested that not maxing out stats was a poor choice, as it gave pretty low odds of succeeding in multiple skills as opposed to decent odds of succeeding in a few skills. And the Bore NEEDS a driver - someone with COntrol. So far, that is the only thing Control is used for, and PW has offered to take that action from us, making Control effectively a dump stat. Same with recover. it's been handwaved away, more or less. Oh, except on one of those mythical combat missions we haven't had (well, that is, everyone but Joshua hasn't had).
And for both of our missions, getting to and from the mission site has been the biggest hurdle, due to lack of drivers, lack of people with move skill, and the complete disinterest shown by builders for doing simple tasks like tying a rope to the Bore (another place in which a stat was handwaved away, though I actually agree here, as it was a simple action that shouldn't have needed a build skill roll.)

See a pattern? Either people are doing a lot of waiting, or various aspects of the mechanics are being handwaved away. both suggest flaws in the system.
I'm not saying the system can't be improved upon and be successful. I am saying that, I feel (my opinion) that as it is, it doesn't work well at all.

That's fair, I guess we've just had very different experiences. Perhaps there needs to be some more incentive for people to take some control skill other than things like driving the bore or the crawler (which are things that help the team but don't give that individual any real advantages). Maybe if we can tame some of these worms and let drivers use them as pets... Though that wouldn't solve any systemic problems, of course.

Spoiler: You know the drill (click to show/hide)

That quote about contacting the Bore: where'd you pull it from? OOC or someplace earlier in teh IC thread? It isn't in the IC thread after I rode the bell up to the Bore, and no one has made an actual request to have it lowered. I'm not arguing that they CAN'T request the bell be lowered. I am saying they HAVEN'T. As for your location, if you are in the air, and have the attention to spare, fine. But it is, as you said, an IC justification for an OOC decision. Up to you(obviously), but I think it would be more IC not to do it.
Though I'm all for people not having to wait around and be bored. But, should the responsibility for moving the action along rest on one player's shoulders?

I got it from here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162118.msg7395477#msg7395477
It is Rautherdir's latest action.

Yes, I do admit that it has a bit of OOC consideration informing IC action to a certain extend, and thus borderline meta even if an IC excuse can be found. But I don't profit from this in any way (if anything, having to re-dive wastes a turn for me and puts me at greater risk of deep sea shenanigans) and it helps other people do their thing, so it seemed fair. Maybe I can try to get that bell to respond to radio'd commands to prevent this from happening again in the future.

[NJW2000]

Seems more realism-driven than DIG... I think I like the crossroads system less on the whole.

While it would probably still use the tag system, I would be REALLY against Crossroads if it dropped that mechanic.

[Egan_BW]

I vote for crossroads, because I like that system better. Though it would kinda ruin the point of my character...

[Ozarck]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I simply disagreed with your opinion, R_C, not with you expressing your opinion.
Maybe the next location will have something of interest for other builds, but maybe not. Who's to say? We aren't there yet. I'm going by the history of the game so far. And that history has shown certain characters acting freely quite regularly while others twiddle their thumbs and wait. And wait. and wait.

The archetypes suggest a degree of specialization. Early on, as we discussed builds, someone suggested that not maxing out stats was a poor choice, as it gave pretty low odds of succeeding in multiple skills as opposed to decent odds of succeeding in a few skills. And the Bore NEEDS a driver - someone with COntrol. So far, that is the only thing Control is used for, and PW has offered to take that action from us, making Control effectively a dump stat. Same with recover. it's been handwaved away, more or less. Oh, except on one of those mythical combat missions we haven't had (well, that is, everyone but Joshua hasn't had).
And for both of our missions, getting to and from the mission site has been the biggest hurdle, due to lack of drivers, lack of people with move skill, and the complete disinterest shown by builders for doing simple tasks like tying a rope to the Bore (another place in which a stat was handwaved away, though I actually agree here, as it was a simple action that shouldn't have needed a build skill roll.)

See a pattern? Either people are doing a lot of waiting, or various aspects of the mechanics are being handwaved away. both suggest flaws in the system.
I'm not saying the system can't be improved upon and be successful. I am saying that, I feel (my opinion) that as it is, it doesn't work well at all.

That's fair, I guess we've just had very different experiences. Perhaps there needs to be some more incentive for people to take some control skill other than things like driving the bore or the crawler (which are things that help the team but don't give that individual any real advantages). Maybe if we can tame some of these worms and let drivers use them as pets... Though that wouldn't solve any systemic problems, of course. There should be an automated charge for driving the Bore and the Crawler. I'd charge personally, but that will end up with someone else making a character, taking over the job, losing interest in two turns, going idle, and PW automating the system, further unbalancing the current system.

Spoiler: You know the drill (click to show/hide)

That quote about contacting the Bore: where'd you pull it from? OOC or someplace earlier in teh IC thread? It isn't in the IC thread after I rode the bell up to the Bore, and no one has made an actual request to have it lowered. I'm not arguing that they CAN'T request the bell be lowered. I am saying they HAVEN'T. As for your location, if you are in the air, and have the attention to spare, fine. But it is, as you said, an IC justification for an OOC decision. Up to you(obviously), but I think it would be more IC not to do it.
Though I'm all for people not having to wait around and be bored. But, should the responsibility for moving the action along rest on one player's shoulders?

I got it from here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162118.msg7395477#msg7395477
It is Rautherdir's latest action. I must have read the "help Rede not die" part and overlooked the rest. I skimmed his action thre times before asking where the quote was from.

Yes, I do admit that it has a bit of OOC consideration informing IC action to a certain extend, and thus borderline meta even if an IC excuse can be found. But I don't profit from this in any way (if anything, having to re-dive wastes a turn for me and puts me at greater risk of deep sea shenanigans) and it helps other people do their thing, so it seemed fair. Maybe I can try to get that bell to respond to radio'd commands to prevent this from happening again in the future. I argue against greater automation. Many of our 'tweaks' to the system have been in favor of doing away with, or making less cumbersome, some mechanic or other. The side effect is always that some stat or build is rendered less relevant and useful. As a Builder, you certainly could automate it, though - further evidence that Build is OP. Not as OP as Transcend, but OP compared to every other stat.

[piecewise]

Seems more realism-driven than DIG... I think I like the crossroads system less on the whole.

While it would probably still use the tag system, I would be REALLY against Crossroads if it dropped that mechanic.

No reason to remove the tag crafting. The problem people have is with the fact that DIG's system is specialization focused and not set up for the sort of general stuff most people do.

[piecewise]

Vote it up
http://www.strawpoll.me/12581119

[Toaster]

I voted no, because I think we're far enough in that changing the system is detrimental.


That said, I do think the specialization in Dig is a bit much, and can totally see the objections that some people have.  Nevertheless, I think this is what we've got.

[The Lupanian]

I voted no, because I think the problem isn't necessarily with the system itself, but with the fact that so far we've only been presented with challenges that can only be solved by two skills, and only a couple people have those skills. We haven't even had a proper combat yet, the closest thing we have had was a PvP shootout that spawned out of boredom. Personally, I would drop a couple monsters out of the sky so us combat builds have something to do, if we still don't like the system, then we change it.

Spoiler: SPONGEBOB! (click to show/hide)

I asked a while ago if we had radio contact, and so I assumed that everyone was more or less mutually aware of everything, since people have been talking about stuff, and so far it's been assumed that most of those conversations were over radio.

Also, one really useful thing for RCs character to do would be to relay messages between pankaek and the rest of the crew.

[syvarris]

Voted no as well.  While I think DIG's current system is very flawed, and actually suggested Crossroads, I don't think going and revising the system half-cocked is a good idea.  That's what landed us with DIG's current system.  Secondly, most people are enjoying it, so requiring everyone to rebuild characters would be annoying to everyone while potentially only being helpful for a few.