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[Ozarck]

Heck, compared to tracking corruption, tracking stamina is ... it doesn't even rise ot the level of child's play, really, compared to Oro.

I still want to play Oro. Just make it open only to active players with track records of consistent play and a certain love of fiddly stuff. Feel free to update weekly and let us self-police in terms of stats, corruption, body parts, and so forth. Also, there should be a turn limit on how long an unattached body part stays fresh enough to be used, so that we are not simply hauling every corpsebit around in some giant quantuum storage unit for use whenever we take a hit. Or, let us do just that. heh heh heh.

[Radio Controlled]

((as long as none of us get any Wounds, we'll recover body based on our recover stat. If there are wounds, they are recovered over time, apparently. Since I am using a weapon, there might be wounds. probably not on my target, of course, since I'd need a 25 roll to actually hit. or 15 if the other guy engages him as well.))

Yeah, I figured it might not be needed, but in case one of you rolls really high and the other low and does more damage than intended , it might be good to have a medic at hand. Then again, since this isn't chunky salsa, there might not be an advantage to getting quick medical help compared to just visiting a doc after the fact.

[Ozarck]

at first, I wanted to spar to test the system, but reading the rules, the questions i had are already answered before the first blow is struck. I'll still spar as a mater of RP and gaining knowledge for my tech though.

sadly, even the technique I am training wouldn't be enough to even the fight against a Roa deathless like sy's character.

And Move to disengage is worthless, since it rolls against Fight anyway, meaning once you are in combat with a superior fighter, you are at their mercy all around. I guess that'll warn me to use Move to keep from getting into fights to begin with.

[Parisbre56]

Is there any use for Knowledge that doesn't require build? I'm trying to see if there's any reason not to max out build.

EDIT: It's mentioned in the doc that they can be used to trade in the Deep Sea. What I'm interested in is whether or not someone who is not into building or going in the deep sea could "level up" or otherwise improve themselves using knowledge.

[Ozarck]

You can gain techniques with it, yes. Look at what my character is doing: he is building knowledge for a fighting technique. No build, no transcend.
Knowledge is not limited by mind, nor by skills. Basically, anything you want to build, create, train, or discover, you can put knowledge toward. But y uhave to develop the knowledge specifically toward whatever you are trying to achieve or acquire.No generic "knowledge about stuff."

[piecewise]

Heh, seems to be a fair bit of hemming and hawing about this game.

I can redo the core mechanics with d100 style NuER stuff with a lot of stats and skills rather than everything in combat rolling off strength.

Or I can run NuER

Or I can rebalance oro to run with a more Rengoku style. Or even a more Severed style. Core ideas still the same, just a less complicated. Corruption's not really needed if you can only have human shape and swap out a set number of pieces. At least not the complex parts of corruption.

I'm ok with just making games I find interesting and throwing them at the wall until something sticks.


As per stamina, we can remove it and just make things take time in terms of crafting, but then we basically also have to remove techniques because there's nothing to balance them.

[The Lupanian]

Personally, I like the looks of this game so far, I think  we shouldn't be too hasty to change it when we haven't even really gotten started yet.

[Radio Controlled]

More ER will always get a vote from me regardless of the system. That said, I very much like the setting of dig and what we could do with it, but yeah, some of the the core mechanics aren't my favorite.

Could make techniques have a cooldown in turns or a max use per mission for balance, perhaps coupled to higher knowledge cost? Though if you're gonna change the core mechanics we might first wanna get an idea for how they'll look before we move on to balancing this.

Personally, I like the looks of this game so far, I think  we shouldn't be too hasty to change it when we haven't even really gotten started yet.

I could agree with this, but the longer we wait the more difficult the transition to a different system would be...

[Devastator]

I'm liking it, and couldn't run away from a nuER fast enough.

[Ozarck]

((@Oz that technique is overpowered.  It's really just trading 5 stamina for +20 fight, at no extra risk, because fight mitigates damage just as much as endure.  The only difference is that if you would deal any damage at all, your technique adds +20 damage.  A better version would be -30 endure, but +15 fight, or that you take your opponent's 2d10 roll in damage regardless but get +30 fight or something.))

That kind of thing is gonna be something like +20 to fight for one attack at a high stamina cost and gonna mean removing or even going negative for endure. Ie bonus but if you still lose you get hit with huge damage.

I read this to mean the fight bonus is for the attack, but if I don't succeed, in the attack, my defense bonus for the counterattack is gone. I.e. If I used that move one you, I would have 55 fight to your 60. if I rolled a 5 and you rolled a 3, then the totals would be 60 vs 63. you win, and your blow connects where mine does not. now we roll damage. I have 20 endure, so on a normal attack I would absorb 20 damage before losing hp or whatever. in this case I don't absorb that and take all the damage. Now, with my recover, that's not a big issue, but nerfing a technique that anyone can learn, due to a specific advantage one characer might have while using it seems a bit off. unless that were to make me effectively immortal, which it doesn't.

the 5 stamina is a significant investment, as it is the highest stamina cost in the ruleset so far outside of the use of one of the greater relics, which allow a player to control an enemy for one round! that is, a 5 stamina relic of the sea can even immobilize an enemy for one round, which is a more significant advantage than mine (provided it works).

Of course, if the endure loss needs to be for a second round, or the bonuses need tweaking, I'm okay with doing so, but I think it's a reasonable technique as it is.

[syvarris]

The idea of ER where everyone can always incarnate is...wait I have a game like that....I think it's called Revolver or repeater.  Remind me about it and I'll find it when I return home.

I'm gonna edit the rules a bit.

Oh hey, Piecewise.  I'd still like to hear about this!

@Ozark
Well, it's a bit better if the fight bonus is only applied on a hit, but if that's the case the description needs to be changed:

One Shot (+20 fight for one round, -5 stamina, -20 Endure for one round)

As-is, it implies that there's no conditional on the extra fight, you just get a straight bonus regardless of circumstances.

Also, I'm not arguing that it's OP because of your character.  If anything, your character is a bad example, because you should never use such an ability as the first attack--it's something to use once you know can comfortably hit, but simply can't get through Endure.  Sifeebt would find it very useful to use against Nameless, due to his somewhat tanky nature, but Nameless would just get himself killed using it against Sifeebt.  It always favors the stronger fighter, who will virtually never be Nameless. :\

EDIT:
As for Dig system concerns, despite my constant complaints I do think we should just run the game as-is for a little while, to see how it works out.  The whole thing doesn't need to rebuilt before we know for sure whether it's broken.  Maybe the complaints are wrong, after all.

Oh, and I've been screwing with AnyDice.com to balance another (completely unrelated) game system, and I found an interesting little article about an unusual dice mechanic, "The Pool".  I'd summarize it, but it's literally just two paragraphs and a picture.

We could easily modify the system and use it for Stamina, to make it less predictable and reliable, while also having some secondary benefits.  Say, your stamina score is the number of d20s you roll (so that point costs are balanced with body and mind), and for high stamina cost actions you have to succeed multiple times in a row.  If you fail a rolls, you still do your action, but take a lasting penalty of a couple points to every skill until you can rest.  Here's an AnyDice program which shows the probabilities of success, from Stamina 1 to 53 (the minimum and maximum Stamina values in Dig respectively)

This removes the need to track stamina costs, introduces a fatigue mechanic that makes extremely skilled people degrade over time, and prevents fights from being completely deterministic, like two people with equal fight and 18+ Endure, who will simply fight until one of them runs out of stamina and immediately gets curbstomped.  It also makes Deep Sea adventures more random and unpredictable, while giving more time to high skill people who can tolerate several stacked levels of fatigue.  Finally, there's in-built diminishing returns, a good nerf for the best attribute!

Of course, it's entirely too absurd to even consider rolling this with individual die, so you'd either need a special program or roll the AnyDice probabilities themselves.  I'm just the idea man, it's other people's job to figure out how to make my ideas work.

[Ozarck]

It's intended as a final blow kind of thing. A risky move if I dicover that Nameless fight is, say, 10 below the other fighter, but usable. If Nameless' fight is at 5 below the other, it gives him a pretty good chance of striking, and should realistically add to the damage as well. But yes, the idea is to override defenses that otherwise wouldn't be easily overridden, or to break through an offensive character's fight if that character is a glass cannon. If I'm getting whittled away by a slightly superior fighter, who has no endure, it's worth something.

The description may need to be modified to indicate that the technique is a purely offensive one, I suppose.

[syvarris]

You ninja'd my edit!

Do remember that we're using a 2d10 system, which means that if you have a ten point disadvantage, there's only a 3.3% chance of you actually hitting your opponent.  With only a 5 point disadvantage, that does improve to a 17.6% chance of hitting them, but that still mean you'll probably be hit (for +20 damage!) at least twice before landing one of your own +20 damage strikes.  Maybe that could be workable under very specific circumstances, such as if you have heavy armor and endure, while your foe has nothing of the sort, but then why would they even be attacking rather than disengaging?

[Egan_BW]

Your tech isn't the most stamina-expensive in the game, because my tech costs 20 for a get-out-of-jail-card. And I still think that one is powerful for the knowledge cost.
I'm for seeing where this game goes before changing everything.

[Ozarck]

You ninja'd my edit!

Do remember that we're using a 2d10 system, which means that if you have a ten point disadvantage, there's only a 3.3% chance of you actually hitting your opponent.  With only a 5 point disadvantage, that does improve to a 17.6% chance of hitting them, but that still mean you'll probably be hit (for +20 damage!) at least twice before landing one of your own +20 damage strikes.  Maybe that could be workable under very specific circumstances, such as if you have heavy armor and endure, while your foe has nothing of the sort, but then why would they even be attacking rather than disengaging?

If I start with a 10 point disadvantage, the +20 will give me a 10 point advantage, and if I start 5 behind, the tech gives me +15. I'm saying that this tech is good for when the opponent is generally somewhat better. The tech takes me from a losing stance to a risky winning stance. But it sounds like you are saying that the endure cost is too high after all, since the tech will only cause me grief in the long run anyway, which is kinda the opposite of your initial concern. The idea is, again, that I'll have the bonus to both attack and damage, while sacrificing defense and stamina.

Edit: are we just talking past each other here? what am I missing from your argument?

I get that this move is useful but unnecessary when I have the fight advantage, unless I need to move on quickly from an opponent for some reason.
It also seems to me that it is quite possibly useful but potentially costly when I have a slight to moderate disadvantage, and is completely useless when the opponent has a significant advantage. It's a situational technique.